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The Westworld Thread - Full of Spoilers! - Season 2!


#1643

You touched on what I’ve been saying: On the whole, the characters became unsympathetic and unlikable.

In Season 1, you cared about Dolores and were rooting for her. With Season 2, she went full-on super-villain. And if the finale was any indication, she is going to be worse in Season 3. What. The. Fuck. They wrecked her character.

Looking objectivel at Maeve’s story, it was really stupid and a waste of time. The quest for her “daughter”? It really made no sense. They’re two robots. How was that supposed to end? It was a terribly conceived arc.

Bernard? Whatever.

Delos is an evil corporation? Wow, that’s a fresh idea. :roll_eyes:

I think Westworld would have worked better as a one season miniseries. Strip down everything, tell the story then get out. I think the turning point for the series was the end of the Season 1 finale. It ramped everything up too much. It did not allow for gradual character growth. It was all just escalated at a frenetic pace. Season 2 may have been better served if the Hosts had started to become aware and started changing their narratives. Weave in the Delos immortality plot with the growing Host awareness. Season 3 is when human and Host collide but not in the bllodfest we got. Be creative.

As I said, I’m done with the show unless I hear it has suddenly improved.


#1644

True, but it gave a large arena for intense character growth.
I’m done with the show because the writers don’t seem to have any new ideas, and barring that - any intention of presenting tired ideas with panache and care.


#1645

It was the perfect idea for an arc with the premise of the show.

They were both robots, but then one of them became self aware and wanted to save the other one, demonstrating her humanity in the process. Even Maeve’s sacrifice at the end makes sense for the show.

What was wrong was the way they told that story.

If you reject the idea that robots are people and that their feelings matter then you are rejecting the whole premise of the show.


#1646

I found it interesting to ponder on the daughter’s relationship with her two mothers. All this emphasis on Maeve “promising” she would find her, well that promise was programmed behaviour, which means her second mother made exactly that same promise (multiple times). With the hosts now remembering their past lives, the daughter has no reason to favour Maeve over her other mother, because to the girl they are identical, indistinguishable even when she remembers Maeve.

I think Maeve realised this right at the end, when she lets the daughter escape with the other mother. To the daughter, that’s just as good as escaping with Maeve – it’s literally identical to escaping with Maeve. Maeve’s entire search has therefore been pointless. Except it hasn’t, because it was necessary for her to realise that herself. (Except then she died, so pointless lesson.)

This is what I meant by moments of brilliance still existing in this season – the concepts behind the show are still compelling, and demand exploration. It’s just a shame that the show itself didn’t do enough with them, and wasted time on pointless puzzles and confused storytelling.


#1647

Letting go, even at death, isn’t pointless. I say that in fiction because it’s a long established dramatic choice by writers, but also in life, which is why it’s a long established dramatic choice by writers.


#1648

For comparison, Game of Thrones went up ~30% in S2, and continued growing from there. Not a good sign to be losing viewers this early in a show’s run.


#1649

I agree with Steve on this, but I think @davidm’s greater point here is that the presentation made it come across as pointless. Separated from the rest of Season 2…I agree that it worked. But overall it just seemed like another symptom of Season 2 having nothing new to say.


#1650

Hopefully everyone who stopped watching at least looked up that post-credits stinger, because that’s the sort of wild shit the show was hinting toward all season.

I have a feeling that if they did see that, it convinced them they made the right decision to stop watching.

Looking at different places around the internet, there does appear to be a serious disappointment with Season 2. Nolan, Joy, et al really dropped the ball for a lot of people. I remember reading that Nolan had an overall plan for the series. I wonder if the plan will change, if it can be, based on the response to this season.


#1651

The stinger makes watching any more pointless.
Really…it gives away the ghost and the entirety of whatever the show will do next.

It was possibly the most numbing part of the finale.


#1652

HBO will force a change. No more asshattery essentially. Just tell the story in a straightforward manner. I think HBO have realized they’ve lost Westworld, it’s not going to be their next great hit show, but I expect they’ll still fund the series and won’t cancel it or cut it short like most other networks would do. Though really I’d only give it one more season to complete the story just to not piss off the viewers.


#1653

The plan has already changed once. There’s no reason it can’t change again. Hopefully they do it more gracefully than they did during season 1 though.


#1654

The stinger pretty much completes the story.
Any extension is completely deflated.


#1655

Yeah, I don’t care about the rest of the story. I have no interest in the robots in the real world at all, and the Ed Harris as a host thing just bothers me. It makes me wonder if we’re in for a time jump and they’ve replayed the events of the park to help establish him. In reality he died being evacuated from the park or something. But I don’t think HBO want such a public admission of failure so they’ll keep up with at least one more season. And it is possible writing could save the show. Long shot, but possible.


#1656

That’s exactly what I’m saying; the show isn’t unintelligent, but it’s a bit less competent than last year.


#1657

Short of doing a Bobby Ewing I don’t know how they could. They went so far off the reservation in the finale I just can’t see how you can walk back the plot details in a convincing way. If you stick everyone who’s died in a new body you mayaswell just go make Altered Carbon. Anything that comes after the finale is practically a different show with some of the same characters. And not even the good ones. Mayaswell be a spin-off.


#1658

And they’ve already tried this premise…it wasn’t good.
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#1659

Well after watching the 2-episode finale, I’ll reaiterate that the “next GoT” is the Expanse… unfortunately it’s flying below a lot of radars, much like Black Sails did (Black sails was also a true “Got-like” show), and instead there’s a lot of focus on this mediocre show… =(


#1660

The Man in Black is a host! At least in the future. The post-credits scene that melted your face featured the Man in Black (Ed Harris) taking a fidelity test administered by his daughter Emily (Katja Herbers). That more than strongly suggests that he was a host… at least this version of him. But the scene was set in the future in yet another timeline that the show has thrown at us — we just don’t know how far in the future. And host may be the wrong word since he’d actually be a replica of an actual human, much like James Delos was in the fourth episode of Season 2.

"In the far, far future, the world is dramatically different," Joy told The Hollywood Reporter. "Quite destroyed, as it were. A figure in the image of [the Man in Black’s] daughter — his daughter is of course now long dead — has come back to talk to him. He realizes that he’s been living this loop again and again and again. The primal loop that we’ve seen this season, they’ve been repeating, testing every time for what they call ‘fidelity,’ or perhaps a deviation. You get the sense that the testing will continue. It’s teasing for us another temporal realm that one day we’re working toward, and one day will see a little bit more of, and how they get to that place, and what they’re testing for."

The other implication here is that in this timeline, the Man in Black is dead as a doornail and likely re-experiencing some of the moments in the Season 2 finale on a loop. And of course if you’d like to hypothesize that what we saw of the Man in Black in Season 2 was actually part of this future loop, then go right ahead. We’ll just slowly and cautiously back out of the room while you go crazy-eyed.

Oh yeah, I am definitely done with this show.


#1661

See? There’s no where left to go.

I am usually the first to rally against people saying that knowing an end-point makes a story pointless, but the series has leveraged everything on this philosophical idea. There’s nothing else that has any chance of being cared about. And it gives up the ghost. Just like that.

With 3 more planned seasons to go.


#1662

The MiB scene should have been the last scene in the last episode in the series.