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Star Wars: The Last Jedi - SPOILER discussion


The Marvel stuff is classic. TV will be showing those movies every week for the next 50 years.


I agree but…Insert a “way of the western” joke…I think of the Marvel movies like the million westerns they showed on Sunday morning when I was a kid. They were fun. I liked them. But those movies weren’t High Noon or the Searchers or Rio Bravo or whatever. They were just entertaining product that came out of the studio conveyor belt. You get your saloon fight, your showdown, the Indian scouts, someone is always falling off a balcony or jumping on a horse. They were great! That’s kind of what Marvel is though.


I’ll be surprised if the MCU movies age well.

As films, I think they’re all really okay, but in another fifteen years they’re going to look cheap, badly written, blandly acted, and pedestrianly directed. My main interest in them is that I appreciate that they’ve pulled off a shared universe of that scope, but individually, most of them aren’t particularly outstanding.


There is also the matter of…are these Marvel movies ever going to end?

If there were 2-3 Star Wars movies every year between 1977 and now, nobody would think of New Hope or Empire as classics. The OT was obviously a phenomenon; however, the franchise probably had to go away for a while for them to be elevated to where they currently stand.


My guess is we’ll get 50 Marvel movies before they’re done. Probably 15 franchises with 3 movies each and then a handful of event movies. At least 50 - they want 4 a year and have all the Fox stuff ready to go.

In terms of classic blockbusters I don’t think we’ve had one great one in a decade, which makes me think we’re not going to have any more. Superheroes changed blockbusters, not only are new ones rarely made, audiences don’t support them. We want the familiar in the cinema these days. Or we’re getting the familiar because Disney. Almost every new blockbuster property (that’s not comic related) tanks at the Box Office. We just like in an era where comics somehow took over as the main source for IP.

I don’t know if I’d consider Mad Max a blockbuster. I wouldn’t consider the originals blockbusters.


I still think it’s Harry Potter that changed the blockbuster. Due to the logistics of the kids getting older they churned out sequels at over twice the rate we’d ever seen since Jaws introduced the blockbuster as we know it. They managed to that while retaining quality control, people may not be fans of them but they are all well directed, well acted have good special effects but are in no way groundbreaking or essential.

Marvel with Disney accelerated that further and maintained it in much the same way, it’s hard to objectively say any of their films are bad but it’s also hard to imagine any being regarded as highly as ET. They have tried and somewhat stumbled doing the same with Star Wars (but only relatively, until Solo they’ve all made a hefty profit).


I’m confident that within 10 years, the big discussion with Star Wars fans will be whether Empire or The Last Jedi is the best Star Wars movie.


No, it’ll be whether they were right to go back and replace Harrison Ford with Alden Ehrenreich in the Original Trilogy Super Special Editions.


Star Wars will still be around, but I don’t see the new movies (so far) being a significant part of that.

Entirely personal of course, but they’re all fading from my memory a lot faster than other films I see.

I can get into conversations here about the last few Marvel films, but I’d have to do a little research to talk about The Last Jedi in detail.

And I’m honestly not that motivated about it.

Still, I do know that when I see a trailer for the next one, it’ll still get me. I’ll still want to like it, to love it, and to go see it.

But I’m not counting the days until it appears online.


I think in twenty years the MCU will have been boiled down to the essentials (roughly, Iron Man, Avengers, Captain America: Winter Soldier, Guardians of the Galaxy, Captain America: Civil War, Avengers: Infinity War, a nice manageable six, seven with the fourth Avengers), with some fans factoring in personal favorites (such as Thor Ragnarok, Black Panther), but essentially the movies relevant to the overall arc.

Whereas with Star Wars it’ll boil back down to the saga. Last Jedi, I continue to argue, is hugely essential in defining how the sequel trilogy answers the first two. It’s making a new statement and that disturbs a lot of fans. Where the prequels attempted to address the original fans by telling them something they already knew, but in a fashion geared toward new fans, the sequels told stories geared toward original fans while attempting to address new fans. It was always a tricky proposition. This is unprecedented in filmmaking, and only a franchise that’s been going, with massive hype, for forty years could get away with it. As comic book fans, we’re uniquely qualified to put that into context. We’ve been following material that’s been balancing that kind of proposition for years.


I think in 20-30 years comic book movies will be mostly remembered for the Dark Knight, and that will be remembered in the same way we now remember stuff like Psycho. The Marvel stuff, people will look at a bit like we look at Gone With the Wind or Avatar—people will acknowledge that they were hugely popular but the context of why will be gone.

Who knows though. We don’t even know how people will be watching older movies in 30 years. TV will be gone, physical media will be gone, and likely the current streaming services. It will be tech that isn’t invented yet, and that skews any predictions.


You’re going to have a bigger problem - PT loving. It’s only old farts who hate that trilogy now :wink:

More seriously, everything for SW depends on Ep IX.

She was good in TFA, got a whole new fanbase for SW.

For me, given what TFA did, TLJ did her a whole lot of damage and I’m not sure JJ can fix it.


While I agree with this overall, I think there’s going to be a big critical reassesment of the earlier superhero movies, especailly Sam Rami’s Spider-Man and Christopher Nolan’s Batman. They’re deeply flawed movies in many ways, and that hasn’t been really addressed yet.


I think Raimi’s Spider-Man has already been forgotten, along with everything else between Blade and Batman Begins.

Nolan’s Batman, I don’t know…I don’t like those movies all that much but Dark Knight has already survived a decade of backlash and reassessment (the other two have been forgotten). Although, you could argue a lot of people who still love it have not actually watched it in a while.


Let’s keep this in proportion.

The internet fuss and the halfwits trolls is not the problem for the franchise. As unpleasant as it can be it has very little effect on the box office.

But the box office has dropped a bit.

That’s a problem if we want to see more Star Wars. It’s either worth Disney’s while making more… or not.

My feeling is that although I may have gone off the new trilogy it doesn’t mean that the franchise is in jeopardy. They’re still going to sell a billion dollars worth of tickets and then shedloads of discs and downloads.

And that’ll keep it all going, along with the TV shows, theme parks and merchandise.

So forget the trolls, or at least see them for what they are; a loud noise, but not one that’s really damaged the signal.


It’s interesting that I felt the other way, not enjoying her in TFA, but TLJ really brought me around.


That remains the single most fascinating aspect of any TLJ discussion - the sheer variance in perception of its aspects.


While I’ve not seen many critical reassments of The Dark Knight, I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re out there. But yeah, Batman Begins and Dark Knight Rises have definitely been hit with the critic-bat.

Personally, I thought the Dark Knight was fantastic from a thematic point of view, but fell apart as a movie - it knew what it wanted to say, but the framework in which it spoke wasn’t great. And it got to about 90 minutes in and then remembered it was meant to be telling a story - and scrambled to wrap things up. There’s still some great moments in there - Batman and the Joker’s final exchange is one of the best scenes those two characters have ever shared, but there’s too many convenient moments surrounding it - from a storytelling and thematic perspective.


Yes, I think your assessment is about right, Lorcan. I have a few different problems with it but the sloppy storytelling is the main issue, and it sags mightily whenever Ledger isn’t on screen. Defenders of the film have said it’s sloppy because “it’s about chaos” which, well…that’s one way of looking at it.

As for critical reassessments, this is one I read just last month:


To be honest it feels like I hear more of that than I hear praise for these movies these days.

I agree that the MCU stuff probably won’t have long-term staying power, individually anyway. They’re too episodic now, too many of them for a single film to stand out. I think the shared-universe element and the bringing of superhero movies truly into the mainstream will be what the MCU is credited for.

A big hit that’s relatively standalone and was a critical success, like Dark Knight, will probably be remembered as the high point of the superhero boom (with maybe some acknowledgement of X-Men and Raimi’s Spider-Man paving the way).