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Star Wars: The Last Jedi - SPOILER discussion


#1403

I think the difference is that Vader was redeemed as a father and not necessarily as a man. If he didn’t have the good fortune of dying when he did, he would have found himself dangling from a rope at Nuremberg, so to speak. I do think that OT was too easy on Anakin, but he died before he would have had to face any consequences.

But who is left to forgive Ben Solo? Luke and Han are dead. Probably Leia, too. Rey doesn’t owe the little shit lord anything.


#1404

One of the reasons I like Luke’s story in TLJ is that it addresses this explicitly, and he ends up rejecting the ‘light side’ Jedi dogma just as much as the dark side.

I think it’s a major theme of this new trilogy that some middle ground can be found between what we’ve always been told previously are binary options, and I wouldn’t be surprised if JJ Abrams makes this very explicit in Episode IX.


#1405

I’m less downplaying the original cast than just reflecting that 40+ people are viewing those with different eyes to kids brand new to it all. They are, in my experience, talking about Rey and Finn as favourite characters.

One thing that I’ve found, not just with my kids but others, is it’s very hard to get them to watch our old favourites. I’ve put Star Wars on many times and they’ll just wander off, I think it’s a change of pacing in films. I have to say that when I was their age watching films in the 1980s, I didn’t watch many from the 1950s.


#1406

This is something I pointed out a while back when we were discussing Star Trek movies. In Wrath of Khan, it takes 45 minutes for Kirk and Khan to encounter each other. In First Contact, Picard is fighting the Borg in 10 minutes.


#1407

But Gar is talking about modern films. :slight_smile:


#1408

Yeah, well the opening scenes of the last two Trek movies I watched were action sequences, so you know.


#1409

It’s common structure to have the protagonist and antagonist to meet at the end of the first act. The Borg Queen is only introduced 45 mins into the movie.

And Luke only glimpses Vader at the end of the second act.


#1410

Nobody really wants to play with their Dads toys (apart from comic fans I guess) so I understand the new young audiences want their own heroes. It’s just that the new cast are poor copies of the old cast. The original trio will be their characters forever. The new cast will be barely remembered. Much like Haden Christensen and Natalie Portman won’t forever be their Star Wars characters.


#1411

I’ve noticed this, too.

Especially with old Doctor Who serials. A lot of those are slow-moving. The four parters generally aren’t bad, but a lot of the Hartnell, Troughton, and Pertwee stories would run six or more episodes and often felt over-padded. At ten episodes, “The War Games” just seemed to drag on forever.

I really have trouble imagining children having the patience to watch and follow these, even in the 60s and 70s.


#1412

And in Wrath of Khan, Captain Kirk and Khan never actually meet face-to-face. Which still sort of blows my mind that they were able to get away with that.


#1413

Part of it is that there is so much choice these days, so there is always something else to turn to if you’re not enjoying something.

I remember sometimes finding Doctor Who slow as a kid, but it was fairly unique at that time and I was willing to stick with it for the good stuff.


#1414

It was clever. Shatter was too old to fight, and Khan would kick his ass anyway. Their battle of minds was far more satisfying. More movies should do something like that.


#1415

Amusingly, one of the early script drafts had Kirk and Khan engage in a psychic battle before Kirk won a starship battle between the two.


#1416

Yeah, it can be quite shocking. I am actually surprised the few times that my nephew actually likes something from when I was his age. Because he just, yeah, wanders off.

I never would have suspected Night of the Creeps becoming one of his favorite movies. Nope.


#1417

Yeah, I’m about to show my kid Clash of the Titans and I’m a bit nervous it’ll be too slow for him, although he loves the original Star Wars trilogy and has seen stuff like Popeye and Tron.

It should be his first time seeing naked boobs in a movie though—a big occasion.


#1418

Except of course Vader wasn’t far worse. (Ignore the stupid stuff in the prequels, we hadn’t seen those yet when Vader has his redemption moment.) Bad things attributed to Vader:

  1. Killed Luke’s father (later shown to be a lie)
  2. Uh, that’s it. He’s bad because he looks scary and everyone scared of him, that’s all.

Everything else he did – all the killing and general mayhem – was in fair, open warfare (and perhaps the odd over-zealous interrogation). Absolutely nothing like the degree of badness of murdering your own unarmed father in cold blood.


#1419

Sure and that’s what you think and I think but it’s not really where this conversation started with Johnny, where he said kids don’t identify with the new characters. I’ve tried with my kids and yeah, they identify with the new characters and so do all their friends.

They have not much more desire to watch 40 year old films than I did when I was 9 or 7.


#1420

The Younglings though!

The Younglings.


#1421

Really? I watched loads :confused:


#1422

Hell, I was a kid in the 00’s and watching films from the 50’s as well.
I blame PBS mostly, but The Great Dictator is amazing.