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Star Wars: The Last Jedi - SPOILER discussion


What’s particularly egregious is that Poe and Holdo’s plan basically end up being the same. They both end up sacrificing massive numbers of rebels/ships to achieve a goal. The major difference is Poe’s plan is proactive and achieves something while Holdo’s is passive, hide, hope the enemy won’t notice and someone else shows up to help them. The thing is her plan would have failed no matter what because the very first Star Wars movie established that star destroyers can and do track escape pods, right down to being able to tell how many people are abroad.

The other thing that is ignored is that Poe’s entire squadron ignores Leia’s orders. It’s not like he even ordered them to. They clearly thought their goal was important enough to keep going despite being ordered by a general to turn back. (Plus they would have still been getting slaughtered while they retreated so everyone would have died for nothing).

Really the main problem with Poe’s plan is that it’s mired in conventional air combat, which doesn’t make any sense especially when TFA established that it doesn’t have to be.


It’s almost as though The Last Jedi deliberately challenges received wisdom and patterns of behaviour that have gone unquestioned in previous Star Wars movies! :smiley:


Challenges it by bringing up a counterpoint, but half-asses/half-measures by not really utilizing within story.

TLJ wants the cred of bringing up a theme, but never puts in the leg work to actually integrate it into the narrative.


Only if it’s your dad. Death Stars, stormtrooopers and emperors are dead meat.

The only reason valid reason for Rose to stop Finn from sacrificing himself is if it wouldn’t have worked (and it isn’t clear to me from the movie that it wouldn’t have). Not because “saving people is better than killing them.” Finn would have saved lots of people if the sacrifice worked, and right after Rose stops him the laser thingy shoots the base, potentially killing everyone he loves.


Like having a scene where a character deliberately chooses a positive act (like saving a life or telling someone they love them) over a destructive one (like blowing something up or killing yourself)?


Luke didn’t destroy the Death Star II, didn’t kill the emperor, and does his best to not use violence at every point in Jedi. He does use violence, yes, but only when he has no other option.


Which would have 99% led to the deaths of everyone because the movie itself, inadvertently or not, frames it as a completely foolish act?

That’s not integration, the whole movie works against that scene.


And bracketing that scene with two scenes where someone chooses a destructive act and sacrifices themselves to save everyone.


You can see Luke’s behaviour that way, or you can see it as stoic non-violence in the face of Kylo Ren’s vicious attempts to attack and kill him.

(Something something point of view.)


So… it skips leg day? Ouch, that’s a burn.


You could also frame Finn’s sacrifice as equally non-violent. Putting a stopper on something from perpetuating violence.

From a certain point of view…Rose is a complete idiot.


I think we’re finally back to where we started.


You guys really overthink some of this shit. :smile:


And we have a winner! Perfectly summarises the thread.


I don’t think episode 8 of a 9 part saga is the proper avenue to start deconstructing a story. Star Wars may have been around for forty years, but I don’t think there’s enough story there to deconstruct, or even a need to. If they want to play games like that, do it in one of the CGI series. Or do it in one of the anthology films.

And I didn’t find TLJ to be deconstructive at all. Rian Johnson isn’t clever enough to pull off anything that even approaches Watchmen; he just wanted to jerk around subvert the audience’s expectations because he thinks that’s an end in and of itself.

There’s nothing wrong with subverting expectations, but you still need to tell a good story in the process, or a better one than the audience was expecting.


Alright, now let’s get back to discussing how the next spin-off should be a Magnificent Seven riff with Seven Aging Stormtroopers having to protecting a farming planet.


You want Star Wars to go the way of the Western?


Nah, this thread can’t stop eating itself.

Make them the 7 Knights of Ren, who have since converted to hard line marxism, so much so they view the Monty Python peasant as a right-wing sell-out and you’re on.


Fine, let’s get back to the fantasy roots and have them in the role of knights on a quest for some sort of Holy Grail.


Yeah but the movie doesn’t exactly make it clear that the rebels are wrong to blow up the Death Star or that Vader is wrong to kill the Emperor.

It’s like if Han Solo had slammed the Millenium Falcon into Luke’s X-wing fighter in A new Hope to stop him from blowing up the Death Star. “Hey Luke forget this killing business let’s do some saving instead!” Sometimes you can only save what you love by killing a whole lot of people. Finn’s decisison to sacrifice himself is exactly the same. Stopping him only makes sense if it is made clear the sacrifice wouldn’t work. (Which by the way makes Finn look like a bit of an idiot.)