Eleven opinion/options in a single sentence doth not lead to a logical anything, bud. You got to stand for something, or you’ll fall for anything. (I learned that in a country song.) That’s eleven if/ors that constitute chaos. Not even a good ladder! No, being an asshole is being an asshole. If caused by some mental liability, that needs to be treated in therapy not touted in public. Inability to separate an actor from a role is exactly such a mental liability. I refer you to Kathy Bates’ performance in Misery. It’s a doodie idee!
There was one opinion in that post Miqque. Putting numbers at random points in there doesn’t change it.
Emm we’re still going on about AOTC and Hayden Christiansen hasn’t deleted his instagram. I think saying you don’t like a movie is fine.
Cinema sins, my boy. Cinema sins!
There’s a difference between saying you don’t like a movie and insisting on reminding people you think it sucks whenever it’s even mentioned. And bear in mind that Jake Lloyd was harassed massively in the aftermath of the Phantom Menace, to the point that he retired from acting in 2001 and gave away all his Star Wars merchandise.
Cinema Sins is bullshit of the highest order.
And there’s how many posts in this thread???
I’m sure you follow a lot of diverse people on social media and, like me, you’ve seen them repost examples of abuse they’ve been sent on Twitter and Instagram. To pick two examples I saw from the last couple of months;
Neither of them was in a Star Wars movie.
I don’t do social media at all.
Yeah, racists are gonna be racist regardless, but the thing is, they like to have cover. If they see something they can latch on to that legitimises their actions, they will. They can say they’re not harassing Kelly Marie Tran because she’s asian or a woman, they’re doing it because Rose sucks. And they’ll say “look, all these people over here say Rose sucks too!”.
The same thing happened with Gamergate, where “it’s about ethics in games journalism” was a cover to harass women who had opinions, and it was effective enough that people genuinely believe it was at least part of the movement. Same with Comicsgate right now.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with repeatedly expressing an opinion when a movie is debated as long as it isn’t disrespectful. That’s just debate, it doesn’t necessarily contribute to harassment.
I think you have to draw a sharp line between honest passionate discussion and abuse that goes over the line. Abuse should be condemned. Getting personal about actors is something entirely different from a passionate fan wanting to share an opinion about something he or she cares about.
The latest one I caught, about a week late, is the Battlefield V one. What’s that one all about? Playable female character in WW2-set game.
Constant yelling into the void about how much you disliked Last Jedi isn’t debate. Debate is structured, moderated, and controlled. And when you look out at the discussion on Last Jedi, the negative stuff is largely bullshit which is little more than people looking to continue bitching about the movie.
I mean, there’s plenty to criticise in Last Jedi, it’s far from a perfect movie. But that criticism is largely coming from people who liked it, and are willing to talk constructively about its flaws. Meanwhile the people who are providing cover for the bigots are yelling about how the movies about space wizards have unrealistic bombers, or making a toy of a character in the movie is unprecedented and evil.
The people yelling about that ignoring that the sniper with the most kills in WWII was a woman, to boot.
Didn’t know that, thanks.
(you added this bit in after I posted)
So here’s the thing, comments even here are “Rose sucked, but this is bad”. If your reaction to this news is to justify your dislike of the movie even when talking about a case of horrible abuse, that’s part of the problem. It’s not passionate discussion, TLJ has just become the latest Emmanuel Goldstein for Star Wars fans.
So here’s the thing. There’s clearly over the past few years been less tolerance for blatant racism. More people are for political correctness, or it’s real term - treating others with basic decency.
And there’s clearly been a backlash to that from those that have been made to feel small minded or bullied or ridiculed. And it’s getting louder and louder. The issue being that if you shame a loudmouth they don’t just slink away defeated like in the movies, often times they double down or lash out harder. Or elect a President.
And mixed in with all of this comes a rush to label more and more opinions as racist or sexism to the extent that things can’t be criticized at all without immediately having those accusations. The internet age had introduced some fast-forward thinking for the sake of convenience. And lost in that wave is real genuine racism.
I understand why fans didn’t like Rose. She wasn’t very heroic, she grated and dogged the hero we liked (Finn) and she was inserted into two rather silly plot twists (stopping Finn from taking out the cannon, essentially dooming everyone to death as far as she knew, and declaring her lover for Finn who she met maybe 5 hours previously).
Added to that Rose isn’t a typical female action star, or even a typical female lead. So it’s pretty easy to speculate that she was cast to appeal to a certain demographic of fans who look like her. This has been the ongoing schism in movies where traditional big strong handsome male leads (like the Rock) have competed against small, weak, kinda ugly male leads (like Micheal Cera). In what many can view as a condescending manner for studios to appeal to the lower denominator.
It’s a complex issue that rarely gets called complex. Now added to all of this you have to be some sort of asshole to go after an actress who did her job, but we live in a world where we attribute the actions of fictional characters to actors all the time.
So I guess I’m trying to say you can’t just call this racism or sexism. There’s a legitimate place for criticism. But it’s also not going after actresses or actors.
I’ll respectfully disagree. There’s nothing wrong with just saying a character sucked. I have a lot of sympathy for the actress, regardless of my opinion for the character which I expressed.
Can we still say Jar Jar sucks?
If you feel the need to reinforce your hatred of the character while discussing the actress being harassed, that’s a problem
Would you do it in response to a news article saying Ahmed Best had killed himself after decades of abuse for playing the character?
No-one’s killed themselves here. We can have this conversation without dialing up the speculation.
Daisy Ridley deleted her Instagram too after becoming famous. I don’t know if there was the same internet reaction calling out racism or sexism. I know that part of public life is getting some real abuse hurled your way, Mark gets it alot in the comic sphere.
As someone who was accused on this board of racism when I criticized Rose in my initial reaction, I will register my horror at what’s happened. I didn’t think Rose worked, and she was the major part of why I had a problem with the movie. And it’s really because she’s arguably the most important element to understanding the movie, which I realized later. She’s the something new everyone keeps yammering about. There’s no Rose in Empire Strikes Back. She’s the cog in the machine that upsets all conventional logic. I called her a Mary Sue, because she’s introduced as hero-worshipping Finn. But she very quickly becomes something else. My biggest hurdle to overcome was that abrupt transition.
Her decisions dominate the story. Without that new story of Rose and her sister, which is itself new, something JJ Abrams does (the opening act of Star Trek focusing on George Kirk still ranks as great filmmaking for me) but opted not to do in Force Awakens, it’s impossible to understand her arc. I hadn’t properly grasped that the first time I watched Last Jedi. She isn’t thinking about Finn at all, but her sister. (Yeah, I wrote a script here to help me process that, that roughly parallels the Finn scene. I don’t think Rose would’ve needed that experience, but it dramatized the importance of family for her.) So Finn comes wandering in, Johnson uses it as an opportunity to confound expectations for the first time. In the original trilogy, you can become a hero the whole Rebellion embraces in a split-second, and you’re suddenly one its leaders. Johnson lets us know Finn is not going to get that treatment. He doesn’t even want that treatment. Except for the part where he takes the money and runs, momentarily, even Han never really resisted that status. (Although that’s really what Solo explores, why it ends up being that way.)
And then Rose and Finn explore what it means to be part of the Resistance, and ultimately encounter DJ, who flat-out contradicts everything. DJ is no Lando. I know the characters roughly parallel, but DJ doesn’t join the Resistance at the end of the movie. Maybe he will next time, but even saying he betrays them like Lando does the Rebellion…Well, no. Lando was totally removed from all of it. He sees his every action as retaining his independence. He makes a business deal with the Empire. Turns out that’s a horrible decision. DJ is already too cynical to care whether he’s siding with one or the other. He believes there’s no real difference. They get their ships from the same dealers!
So anyway, Rose and Finn end their arc together with Rose making a dramatic decision to save Finn’s life. Finn wants to sacrifice everything. Rose already knows what that looks like. And she recognizes that what Finn wants to do is very different from what her sister did. Her sister had no choice. Finn does. It costs Rose a great deal. I think I’m even comfortable with the idea of Finn starting the movie in a recovery bed, and then seeing Rose and Leia in one. The whole Resistance is on life support! And the movie ends with a kind of stalemate defeat. The First Order loses its fleet, but has infinitely more resources. The Resistance believes the whole thing now lives on in a single ship. But we know better. We see that kid with new hope on Canto Bight. We know Rose will be back. (Hopefully she will!) And we know the fight isn’t over.
After all, Star Wars is about hope, even when all seems lost. I can’t think of a more relevant message for these times. I can appreciate the dramatic impact of Infinity War, but I prefer the way Last Jedi ends.
I’m not suggesting that he’s going to or anything. I’ll admit it was something of an absurdism, but where does one draw the line at where it’s appropriate to just talk about thing that happened is bad, vs thing that happened is bad, but I have to strongarm in my opinion on this related item?
Yeah, and like, Mark is far from my favourite writer but you’d think he personally shit in a whole lot of people’s cereal the way he gets treated.