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Star Trek: Discovery - discussing S01E15, "Will You Take My Hand?"


#1643

They evolved one by the end of the ‘90s. Ironically it was the power they got from having a series of books based on every series, and the crossovers they did, that emboldened them.


#1644

As for the new episode, maybe it’s because I was just thinking about the books and how and why they began disappointing me, but I think this was a disappointing episode, too, one too many dramatic leaps forward, in ways I think we’ve seen once too often. Not to say it’s a bad episode, or that it changes my overall opinion of the series to date, but that maybe I’d been riding too high on the wave with recent episodes, and this was an inevitable crash.


#1645

Baically this. Prior to the ‘relaunch’ books, the official line back in the day was “there isn’t continuity between the novels unless there is”. So Michael Jan Freidman’s novels about the crew of the Stargazer were in continuity with each other, but if some other TNG novel contradicted this those two stories weren’t. Same with Peter David’s books that referenced each other, or the crossovers like Day of Honour.

Of course, that changed with the ongoing relaunch/series 8 novels, except they grandfathered in some elements of the prior novels - The New Frontier books are all included, as are the DS9 novels A Stitch in Time and The Lives of Dax. Freidman included the Stargazer crew in the novel Death in Winter, so it’s possible that all of his older books are included, or maybe just those character histories.

I’ve seen a lot of people complain about DISCO contradicting canon details about the Klingon War, but in every case it’s something from the novels, or the RPGs, or a fan film. It’s amusing to compare what fans thing happened at the battle of Axanar to what we’re actually told in TOS.


#1646

As for this week’s episode of DISCO?

HOLY

SHIT

I loved it. Not just the action sequences, which were pretty cool, but more than ever the people on Discovery felt like a Starfleet crew. Tillty and Stamets have a total Geordi and Data or O’Brien and Nog vibe now, Saru is a Starfleet captain now. He’s got it down perfectly without needing the Computer to validate his feelings. I wonder if he picked up that line about the no-win scenario from a certain junior officer in the Advanced Training School right now?

And I loved how much Burnham and Mirror Georgiou’s attack on the throne room paralleled the fight on the Ship of the Dead. It’s all about how far Burnham has gone - the fact that she lowered her phaser against Lorca while switching to kill and shooting T’Kuvma at the Binary Stars. There’s other interesting parallels in there - Georgiou fighting Lorca like her Prime counter part did T’Kuvma, while Burnham fights Landry like she did against Voq. It’s deliberately symbilic.

Very much looking forward to next week. I might have to do a deep-dive series of posts when the series is done.


#1647

Well wow, the last two episodes have been something else


#1648

I appreciate parallels, but that fighting is specifically what I was talking about. It just seems as if these writers are too eager to move to a big fight. At a certain point it just feels lazy. And if it happens this often, regardless of whether or not it’s the Mirror Universe, it really deviates from Star Trek norms. This isn’t even about life during wartime. We’ve seen lots of wartime in the franchise at this point. Maybe I’m just mad about how Lorca was ultimately handled. Any other series would’ve looked for redemption. Even “Mirror, Mirror” looked for redemption. They’ve got to find a much better balance between their interesting concepts and what to actually do with them, rather than just blow them up, and blow through them.

So again…just one curveball too many too soon.


#1649

Except it wasn’t Burnham who killed Lorca, it was Mirror Georgiou. Burnham was in the middle of giving the redemptive speech. The whole point of that paralell is that Burnham chose not to shoot the second time.

But even then, there’s plenty of times that a Trek hero has killed their opponent in similar circumstances - Kirk with Kruge in Search for Spock, Worf with Duras and Gowron, Kelvin Kirk with Nero…


#1650

But even while the viewer is being told Lorca is irredeemable, we’re simultaneously being told Mirror Georgiou is. And we will have at least one more episode with her to try and be convinced of it. Which to me is ridiculous. The only reason Burnham would sympathize with this woman is out of guilt for what happened with her Georgiou. Mirror Georgiou is demonstrably a bad person. Becoming emperor in the Mirror Universe is pretty much the definition of being baddest of the bad in the Mirror Universe. And killing Lorca is the last piece of proof Burnham could possibly need. If she’s decided to do something else, a good person, even a potentially good one, would make the same choice. We’re supposed to buy into it because Lorca is “irredeemable,” and Burnham won’t do it because she’s grown since the start of the series. Which means Mirror Georgiou does it, essentially, because she won’t grow. And it will be bad storytelling to even suggest otherwise. And bad storytelling if Burnham doesn’t realize that. Unless the whole point is for her to ultimately realize she did the right thing, originally.


#1651

I don’t think we’re being told Mirror Georgiou is redeemable, but that Burnham believes it to be the case. And Burnham was definitely trying to start to redeem Lorca when she said they would have helped.

There’s big difference between what the characters do in the story, and what the story allows us to infer from those actions. I’m of the opinion that Burnham is going to try and fail to redeem Georgiou, and this will be another step on her path of redemption, to let go of the baggage she still has from failing to save Prime Georgiou. The fact the Mirror Georgiou killed Lorca at the first opportunity is the show giving us the hint that Burnham is doomed to failure in her attempts.


#1652

What I’m saying is that this is an arc that should have concluded in one episode. She shouldn’t have transported Mirror Georgiou with her.


#1653

But now Georgiou gets to be held up as the dark heart of humanity when she’s consulted on the war effort


#1654

Everything is now due a time travel reset anyway so the only things that actually matter in that episode are the character journeys of the crew of the Discovery which seems to be what the show itself is ultimately about.

In any case we will see Federation Lorca, Terran Lorca, Stamets bf I can’t think of the name of and a bunch of other people again via the joys of temporal tinkering.


#1655

I think that’s it, and how that effects Burnham. She has to test what she’s learned against this stranger with her mentor’s face.

I understand the counter-argument. It did feel like a season finale in many ways and concluding that particular story would;ve worked.

But this show is about Burnham and she’s still not reached the end of her growth as a person yet.


#1656

#1657

I’ve been reading Handlen’s DISCO reviews each week, and while his criticisms of the show from a technical standpoint are often valid, I think he’s missing the forest for the trees somewhat with the show. He did an amazing series of reviews of TOS, TNG and DS9 on the AV Club in years past, but I think he’s spending too much time trying to see the logical throughput between classic Trek and DISCO. Also, he’s not seen Voyagaer or Enterprise, so might bot be aware of just how stale Trek’s 90s formula got, necessitaing in part how far DISCO has gone away from it.


#1658

Oh, have we seen the mirror universe transporter in use?
Maybe that wasn’t Lorca being disintegrated…


#1659

Georgiou used one to escape the ambush where Mirror Owashkun got killed.


#1660

Hmmm, still believe it’s a viable option to bring him back (admittedly, what I want).


#1661

It just feels wrong. We were talking all along about Lorca as that dark heart. If anything, Mirror Georgiou should be for Burnham what Lorca was for all the fans who called Lorca too dark. Burnham really should’ve recoiled at the thought of her. Not embraced her. Not transported her home! If anything, it’s a huge step back. Which itself is valid. This whole experience has been compromising. But again, the end result of that compromising shouldn’t itself have been a compromise.


#1662

I’d be willing to be cash money this will be the plot of the series finale. To paraphrase another member of the House of Sarek, she is emotionally compromised.