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Star Trek: Discovery - discussing S01E12, "Vaulting Ambition"


#1403

[quote=“SeanR, post:1402, topic:195”] And what’s going on with him? A re-watch from the start should have us singing his praises (if I am correct in his personality shifts).
[/quote]

I think, on reflection, you’ll be right.

He’s my favourite character right now.


#1404

I caught up on the rest of the season last night. It remains an interesting but deeply flawed and uneven show. Saru is particularly problematic and after the last episode his starfleet career would be over. The show of course will ignore that though.


#1405

Hmmm, I don’t know about that. A basic Trek staple is characters fighting with shipmates under the influence of an alien or alien world. If he got booted out he would definitely have grounds for wrongful dismissal.

I think the issue with Disco at times is that they are playing it off as much more realistic than past Trek - but you have to remember it’s still Trek. The science is baloney and the ramafications of any behavior are tainted by how the Federation operates and sees itself. People don’t get sacked in the Federation, even if they have comitted treason they can wear a badge. Captains often disregard all orders and are rarely held accountable, if ever.


#1406

No, he openly states that he wasn’t under their influence. He tried to desert in a time of war, and attacked his crew mates and destroyed starfleet equipment in order to facilitate that desertion. He would have been in the brig as soon as he got out of the medical bay. Lorca could keep him active as long as the war is going on but the moment it was done he’d be out. That’s ignoring the fact that he was fine with torturing an animal earlier in the season.


#1407

Like I said upthread, his defence counsel would absolutely play the blue swirly thing card at his court martial, and he’d get off.


#1408

The planet’s effects on his nervous system is a form of interference in his usual patterns of behavior, he’s speaking from.a place if guilt, his Captain would represent in in tribuneral regardless of Saru’s personal feelings. If it wasn’t for the effects of the planet on him he would never have acted so out of character, hence we can infer influence. This is the way of the Federation, you can’t ‘boldly go’ if your ships crew get court martialed every time they acted strangely because of the effects of something alien, you’d have no crew left.


#1409

But the show will never get that far. They’re just going to ignore it. They’re going to ignore the fact that he can’t be trusted as first officer since he’s highly susceptible to drugs or other forms of influence that make him less afraid. It’s the central problem with his character. Someone with his level of fear, which openly affects his behavior and decisions right from the very first episode would never have made it to that level of authority.

They’re also not ‘boldly going’ they’re an experimental warship in the middle of a war. When he was on an exploratory ship he was too afraid to explore.


#1410

You’ve seen Star Trek before, right? :wink:

I’m not disagreeing that it makes little sense by realistic standards, that was my whole point. Despite the air or realism this is still Star Trek, the only reason for the ‘realistic’ approach is that it fits with what people want from their TV shows. I talked about this after the very first episode, that palming this stuff off as realistic when there are shows out there like The Expanse means the usual Trek cracks show far more clearly and can be very annoying. If you accept that it’s the best attempt at realism the Trek world can make, then it’s much easier to be entertained, like the MCU. As realistic as they try to make it, it’s about as real as the comics in terms of science and repercussion. Doesn’t mean it still can’t be enjoyable.


#1411

“Captain Nagle, you stand accused of destroying 40 planetary systems and killing 100 billion sentient beings. How do you plead?”

“Admiral, there was this invisible, completely undetectable energy being that took complete control of my mind. It had nothing to do with the fact that that I owed those systems hundreds of millions of credits. But the alien is completely gone and I’m feeling much better now”

“Acquitted! You can return to active duty.”


#1412

One thing I will say for the recent movies is that they made Kirk a captain way too fast and then they addressed his lack of experience in the next movie.

Trek can deal with this stuff, but I agree that it generally doesn’t.


#1413

I did think it was unfortunate that they played it the way they did. Mainly because they made such an incredibly huge deal of Burnham disregarding orders and attacking her Captain. Him doing basically the same and everybody just shrugging it off goes against everything they established before.


#1414

Yeah the show wants to have it both ways. It wants to have serious, real consequences but only when it feels like it.


#1415

It kinda reminds me of Kirk splitted in two… that’s kinda of what happened to Saru, an entire part of his being was basically removed.


#1416

That was a fun mid season finale. Will spoiler talk later (saw it last night)


#1417

I mean, I didn’t expect them to do THAT.

Interesting.

Open question: (not directly related to the content of today’s episode): Do you think there is going to be an element of reality-bending/timey-wimey-ness which will specifically explain the apparent contradictions in Trek continuity Discovery suggests, or is this simply all going to be down to a willing suspension of disbelief?


#1418

The second.


#1419

Yeah, that’s my default assumption too BUT … the idea that Starfleet had access to a radical propulsion system that then vanished completely, and the way that we are beginning to get glimpses of how spore drive travel works seems to open up the possibility that a reality-altering reset might be at least a possibility?

I can see a possible ultimate ending where Discovery’s final fate is to save the Universe, but where no-one remembers her or her crew.


#1420

I think they have a few outs with the Spore drive not being a contender for mass production - most notably that it requires the soul of a forsaken child to power, but I like that as an endgame


#1421

Disclaimer: Continued use of the spore drive may induce brain damage, multiversal collapse, invasions from another dimension and/or a complete breakdown of the cosmic architecture.

Not sure if I shoud be posting spoilers on the open yet.


#1422

Don’t read the article without seeing the episode first, there’s spoilers.