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Marvel Movies & TV General Discussion


#8247

The Whedon tics are probably my biggest gripe with the big blockbusters these days. Most of them are done in that style, and they’re mostly bad copies. The films that don’t play that way seem fresh to me, even though it’s more accurately “classic” than anything else, and they tend to flop these days. Most recently, Mortal Engines.


#8248

Hmmm. Maybe it says more about me than anything because I don’t know if it’s a conscious decision in the notes writers have built up in the MCU, but Cap has showed signs of heavy depression thoughtout, it’s like he uses being a hero to give him a reason to live and then bad shit keeps happening to him so he doubles down. Honestly, when I heard this line I felt he was alluding to suicide, because that’s the way I’ve heard some people who suffer from depression speak.


#8249

But if he’s going to kill himself then doesn’t that mean he DOES know what he’s going to do if the plan doesn’t work?

:thinking:


#8250

It works if my theory about Steve and Natasha having to repopulate the Earth holds true…


#8251

But people don’t say they feel like suicide is the next option. The term, “I don’t know what I’ll do if (such and such) happens,” is a pretty widely used term, at least in the UK, and in certain contexts it can basically mean, “If this doesn’t work and there’s nothing left to try then there’s nothing left for me.”

It’s pretty fucking dark, like. It’s such throwaway day to day language, “Oh Marjorie, if we don’t get a big enough turkey I don’t know what I’ll do this year,” but I can also be used as a suicidal threat… “Marjorie, don’t leave me… don’t know what I’ll do if you leave me!!” You can tell from context this is blatant emotional blackmail.

In Cap and Widow’s exchange, in the context of how I see Cap, there’s an undercurrent to what he’s saying - all but actually admitting he feels suicidal.

He’s never ever going to say that, though, cause he’s Captain America.


#8252

That’s why the line doesn’t work. For it to have any weight, Cap would have to be the guy that always has a plan or finds a way, is positive and confident.
Evans as Cap is a depressive mope and uninspiring.


#8253

Yeah but bar Evans, the idea that cap is so broken and down by this point is a great one, it really just seems like he isn’t selling it right. In the same trailer Tony still has this… I donno… confidence he will somehow fix things at the last moment. I’m not sure Steve should really have that at this point, Tony has Pepper Potts, Steve literally has nothing to live for, he’s painted himself into a corner.


#8254

This is a good explanation but a pretty damning one of these movies and of Evans’ Cap.


#8255

I don’t know, is it? Like, since the 80s we’ve been self aware enough to know that Superheroes realistically need their head checked. I like that Steve Rogers is such a good guy because it’s the thing he holds on to to make live worth living when horrible shit happens to you your whole life. Like Keanu Reeves.

*I guess it is in the same way all realistic portrayals like Watchmen are - being a hero isn’t pretty.


#8256

Yes, leaving aside the wisdom of having an Actually Suicidal Cap, these movies tonally are too all over the map to authentically and realistically portray a Steve Rogers who literally wants to kill himself alongside the talking tree and “language!” jokes.

I’m going to pretend I didn’t see the part of the post comparing these movies to Watchmen. :grimacing:


#8257

But isn’t life itself toneally all over the map? :grin:

What I will say is that the line would have come of better in a better actors hands. I think Evans is great but he’s not all that nuanced at times.

You spelt informed by wrong.


#8258

Well, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I do see your point, but honestly it never occurred to me for a second that they’d make Steve Rogers Actually Suicidal. I’ve always thought they did a poor job with the character but I never thought it was THAT bad.


#8259

Well, he’s not suicidal per se. Having depression and suicidal thoughts is not the same as being on suicide watch. And here he is basically admitting, “I’m close to feeling utterly suicidal at this point, Nat, if this doesn’t work I’m afraid I’ll actually do that.”

I think the point has always been in the movies that no matter what happens Cap strives on. Seeing him lose all hope to the point of him even contemplating suicide - which is something a lot of people go through in their lives - is not a major jump considering the amount that has happened to him since his mother passing away. He’s lost his whole world. Twice.

I think it would actually be a stretch for him not to question inside whether or not life was worth living. Just imagine losing everyone you ever knew and were close to, and then it happening again just a few years later. Widow is all he has at this point and she doesn’t look as if she is dealing with it well either. Cap may be a Superhuman, but he’s still only human.

*I edited this a wee bit at the top for clarity.


#8260

That was my take as well. I’ve heard emotionally exhausted people talk like that, so it made complete sense to me. I don’t think Cap is suicidal, but there are certain strains of cosmic insanity that can push someone to the end of their rope.


#8261

There’s a magic glove. They just need to get the glove - it’s a basic maguffin plan, that would be in a standard episode of Scooby Doo. All this grim depression doesn’t really fit in these kinds of movies.

Caps line is something Superman would never say. Honestly Cap shouldn’t say it either.


#8262

Whoever posted this tweet didn’t have any higher opinion of Evans as Cap:


#8263

Yeah but we know he’s not ever going to commit suicide. And we also know that Marvel movies have a lot of levity. It’s just a blatant narrative tool for a trailer, but in the writing it gives a depth you can either go and think about or just ignore. Nearly every character has had moments where they are emotionally naked, there’s some serious dark moments in the first half of Doctor Strange but it is balanced with comedy afterwards. GOTG is one of the lightest and most entertaining movies I’ve ever seen and it starts with a crushing cancer death scene.

Life has bad shit that happens and I think that, mcguffin or not, allowing your characters to be human and sometimes be emotionally destroyed is what’s makes you root for them in such a vivid way. The MCU never becomes misery porn in the same way Rocky doesn’t. You see them at rock bottom but are left feeling great because you see them defeat that which is much more satisfying than any bad guy getting beaten.


#8264

Even putting the suicide angle aside, the plan will work because he’ll be sad if it doesn’t?

Huh?


#8265

Man you guys are going way too deep into a single line. It’s pretty straight forward. Whatever they’re going to try is a last ditch effort and if it fails Cap is out of ideas, which is why failure isn’t an option.

Yes, the idea is to show also how much the snap has affected him.


#8266

Don’t criticize the mouse!!