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#4677

Zemo knew about the tape in the first place, so he’d seen enough solid evidence about the Stark assassination to devote his life to manipulating the heroes. He could have just shared that knowledge instead.

Civil War’s just a terrible movie in my opinion. To be honest they didn’t even need Zemo, the whole movie was basically Cap defending Bucky with a sprinkle of Cap thinking he’s better than everyone else on the planet.


#4678

To be fair, he just thinks he knows better than the government panel.
Tony has repeatedly made ego driven mistakes that cost lives. Black Widow spent years as a government assassin, Banner is just as responsible for Utron as Stark and the Hulk is collateral damage waiting to happen. Thor doesn’t seem to be around enough to have an opinion and Hawkeye… he’s good with a bow.
So out of all the Avengers I’d say Cap has the best judgement and intentions. His worst collateral damage was the heli-carriers in WS but I lay that on Hydra and SHIELD. Now that I think about it in the MCU he’s really the truest definition of a Superhero on the Avengers team.


#4679

How is he going to share that knowledge in a way that’s going to be believed? The whole point is that the tape is from the Winter Soldier base, it’s incontrovertible.

Whether or not you like the film is besides the point. I wasn’t talking about the quality of the film, just the idea that Zemo’s plan is some how convoluted when in reality it’s incredibly straight forward, it’s only the presence of the Civil War that complicates it but even then it’s still straight forward.


#4680

No, his plan is convoluted and hinges on pure luck. So first of all, he somehow knows Bucky killed the Starks (and knows a lot about Bucky, that he’s Steves BFF), that’s the basis of his plan. But you have to wonder “well, if he knew about it, he must have seen some sort of document or video that should’ve been enough to send to Stark at any point”, rendering the rest of his plan mostly moot.

Secondly: He knew about the accords, since that’s what the UN meeting was for… he decides to bomb it and frame Bucky, in order to activate him and get the inter on the soviet base… right but he must know full well how the authorities might react to such a terrorist act, which is “apprehend with prejudice”… So once again here, his plan hinges on Bucky being captured alive, which only happened cause Cap was there… had Cap not found him at all or in time.

So anyways he gets lucky and Bucky is captured… ok cool, so anyways, he interrogates him in a super secure facility by impersonating a high level worker… 'cause none checks photos on IDs these days, lucky for him… :roll_eyes:

How lucky it is for him that Cap decided to not surrender right? Or that Stark didn’t subdue him and restrain him right there 'cause at that point it’d be game over for his plan.

Then lastly, he sure is lucky that Cap realises it was Zemo all along and chases him to a Russian base. HE’s also lucky when Steve and Bucky manage to escape the airport and get a transport… And is lucky again when Stark decides in a last-minute change of heart that Steve might be right and follows them, cause otherwise only Cap and Bucky would’ve made it to Russia and he would’ve been captured without Stark knowing shit.

Also, lucky he knew that Stark would react the ay he did right? and that a fight between Cap and Tony would “break the team” right? I mean, why would that break the team actually? =/

Wouldn’t the accords passing and the big fight in the airport where half of them get jailed be enough? What was the point of the tape again?

ugh… worst villain plot ever…


#4681

This was literally explained in the movie. When Black Widow dumped all of Hydra’s files online he found reference to the tape, which he never investigated further.

[quote=“Jacowboy, post:4680, topic:10028, full:true”]
Secondly: He knew about the accords, since that’s what the UN meeting was for… he decides to bomb it and frame Bucky, in order to activate him and get the inter on the soviet base… [/quote]

This is what I mean by the Civil War getting in the way. He chose to bomb the accords because it was convienent, not because it was part of the original plan. He would have just framed Bucky for bombing something else.

It has nothing to do with luck. Again, the movie clearly states that he spent massive amounts of time studying the avengers, getting to know all about them, how they think and act. He knows that no matter what Cap will make sure Bucky is brought in alive.

Pretty sure the movie says that he hacked their files so that he’s on record as the interrogator. It’s only after he wants them to know he’s not that they find out.

Again, not luck. He spent a massive amount of time studying them. But once more, this is what I’m talking about when i said that Civil War keeps getting in the way of his plan.

[quote=“Jacowboy, post:4680, topic:10028, full:true”]
Then lastly, he sure is lucky that Cap realises it was Zemo all along and chases him to a Russian base. HE’s also lucky when Steve and Bucky manage to escape the airport and get a transport… [/quote]

Once more for those in the back row with trouble hearing, this is what I’m talking about when I said that Civil War keeps getting in the way of his plan.

Do I need to say yet again that he spent a massive amount of time studying them so he knew how they’d react or is it obvious that I’m going to at this point?

He has nothing to do with the accords and his plan is already in motion when the accords come into play. Without his bombing, which had nothing to do with the accords, other than giving him a target to frame Bucky for, the heroes wouldn’t be fighting. Civil War essentially has two plots running concurrently and influencing one another but aren’t actually related to one another. Zemo’s plan is completely straight forward: Get the location of the Winter Soldier base and show Ironman/Cap the tape so that Ironman will try to kill Bucky forcing Cap to fight him. The Civil War keeps making it harder for him to accomplish that.


#4682

“Massive amounts of time to…” It’s one year, since AoU… One year to recuperate, grieve, conceive a plan, and put it into action (which btw, inlcudes tracking a specific Hydra agent that’s eluded everyone else so far, hacking into secure facilities, tracking the correct interrogator, etc…)… but hey, if that sounds like “massive” to you, fine… =P

Also “Civil war keeps getting in the way” is not a valid excuse because that’s precisely my point… lots of things could’ve gone wrong that would’ve screwed up his plan (like Cap being detained, Bucky getting killed by BP, Bucky being detained, any of them dying in the airpot battle, etc…). In fact, if you remove all the convenient lucky breaks he gets, he should’ve gotten to russia and kept waiting like an asshole there by himself while no one came… :smile:

Fair point about BW’s Hydra dump, I forgot about that… but still, he could’ve set up Tony to investigate it… but eh, I’ll roll with that.

As for the rest, nah… don’t agree with you… there’s a difference between him “studying them” and knowing that Cap will do this or that… but it still hinges on luck and Cap actually managing to succesfully accomplish any of those things…


#4683

Video is incontrovertible in 2018?? Was the Avengers a documentary?

He thinks he knows better. He doesn’t though. He believed in SHIELD with 100% conviction until it was explained to him using small words that SHIELD was Hydra. Cap’s convinced about things until he learns different, and the problem with people like that is can take them a long time to learn. In the meantime their absolute view can cause serious damage. If he were really wise he’d admit he can’t know everything, and in most situations he can’t know very much at all. He’s a soldier, he solves problems by punching them and he’s missed the last 70 years of human history. That should be enough to give him pause.

Tony for all his hubris is at least a visionary and a smart dude who understands the planet. The thing about Ultron was that Ultron was the right idea. The world needs an army of Iron Men watching over things. We’re about to see what happens when they don’t have that when Thanos arrives. His idea was right, he just couldn’t have anticipated that the Infinity Stone (or whatever) would create a supervillain (and then create Vision - it’s all a bit of a mess really).


#4684

That and also, why would any of them believe the guy who’s been setting them up and who admits is behind everything? Like why would you instantly believe his shady ass video and not give your friend the benefit of the doubt? =/


#4685

Is this all really about your love for @Will and how it can never be? :wink:


#4686

…maybe.


#4687

I can’t fault Cap for believing in SHIELD, the non-popsicle people with superior intel like Nick Fury and most of the department fell for Hydra’s plan. It’s too bad Tony isn’t in that flick, it would make it more interesting for the overall Avengers arc.

As for Ultron, I disagree that we need an AI army protecting us, it makes more sense that the military would just have human piloted war machines by the thousands, maybe unmanned drones but human controlled.
Tony could have forseen the anomaly that created Ultron if he engaged in regular science instead of his “mad-science” by study and experiment rather than assumption, like Banner advised.
The movie is a bit of a mess, but thats what happens when the real world collides with Superheroes. :wink:


#4688

Tony was worried that the US military would use the suits for political ends. Which is what Cap was worried about in Civil War! The whole thing makes no sense! It’s almost like it’s all made up and characters behave certain ways to suit plot points!


#4689

#4690

Not hard to guess who.


#4691

#4692

It’s Thanos! The whole movie is a fakeout and it’ll really be about Kang!


#4693

Tony wasn’t worried about his suits being used for immoral purposes. He was worried about them being used by someone…other than him, who wasn’t aligned with his interests. He could easily find thousands of candidates to use thousands of suits, but he hasn’t and he won’t. He’s been entirely consistent. He’s perfectly happy to boast that he “privatized national security.”

The idea of Iron Man was noble to begin with: once he became a victim in the field where his weapons operated, he jettisoned the idea of those weapons. Was he rejecting the idea of war? Well, not if you consider Ultron. Ultron was his weapons all over again, something that produced results he didn’t expect. And again, the first thing he does in both circumstances is cover his own skin. It makes a great superhero origin, how he made his first set of armor. But then he becomes a superhero? Out of those circumstances? It’s his hubris, and that’s it. He thinks by limiting the damage, by having the appearance of doing the right thing, he is doing the right thing. And he does this again. And again. And again.


#4694

That’s one interpretation. What he says is:

Because I’m your nuclear deterrent. It’s working. We’re safe. America is secure. You want my property? You can’t have it. But I did you a big favour.

And then the whole point of the Iron Man 2 movie is Tony admitting he’s not a very good nuclear deterrent so he gives a single suit to Rhodey. That wasn’t in his interests, it was in the countries interests, which he was all about. Otherwise Justin Hammer was going to step in. Who actually made military robots, that went all Ultron (even though he had no intention of that, Hammer was essentially Stark in Ultron v1).

I know Iron Man 2 was pretty bad, but have we completely forgotten it?


#4695

Stark’s behavior is justified and equally rational and irrational like a normal human being who has made that sort of discovery. A lot of Stark’s appeal is that he absolutely was not prepared for it. He just was the guy who found himself in that position so he’s made the best choices he could often from a very poor perspective. Unlike Steve Rogers, he didn’t have the moral code and resolve already established and tested by committee (literally) before being put into the position of superhero.


#4696

Cap’s transformational moment is good cinema, but a terrible military choice:

“Who should we spend all our resources changing into a super-soldier?”

“How about the guy who throws himself on top of a grenade and sacrifices himself at the first opportunity?”

“You mean the same dumbass who thought I’d throw a live grenade in basic training?”

“That’s him!”