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#4657

And to be fair, they don’t make Tony look bad, he IS bad. He’s high-handed and secretive, as well as selfish, dictatorial and vindictive. None of which is out of character, it wasn’t really a surprise that he acted that way.


#4658

Aren’t the accord his attempt to not be that way? To point out to Cap that the safest hands aren’t their own? What Cap’s really saying is that his hands are safe. Not Tony’s, Thors, Hulks, Widows or the other Avengers. Cap knows best. Which is a pretty terrible position to take.


#4659

He’s also a stand-in for the United States. Most of the world, and a lot of Americans, after the experiences in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq, have wanted to seriously limit the US military’s activities. The Avengers are basically a superhero military outfit. In essence he’s switched his loyalty from the US military to the Avengers. He would be no more interested in someone saying he can’t fight Hitler than someone saying he can’t fight Ultron. That’s the whole point. What Stark is saying is that someone can and should. He’s saying that Ultron is off-limits if someone says he is. That’s the opposite of what superheroes do.


#4660

He’s not rejecting democratic institutions or saying he doesn’t want to be bound by international law. You quoted what he actually said and interpreted it in a particular way. His words are pretty clear about his concerns with signing the accords. In the context of Cap’s experience with government I’d say it’s well founded concern. It’s one thing to be a soldier, being a super soldier is different. The potential for a government to use him as an indiscriminate weapon for unethical or immoral purposes is high and from Cap’s experience probably likely.
“realistically” I wouldn’t support vigilantism, but we’re talking about a film universe, one in which the highest levels of the government were infiltrated and controlled by an international terrorist organization for 70 years.
If were Cap I would trust my self and veiw my own hands as the safest.


#4661

Tony turns those who are willing over to government control, turns his friends into outlaws and then does whatever the fuck he wants when he wants to. Most of his actions throughout the film are off the books and unsanctioned. Once again everyone pays for Tony’s hubris. It’s such a theme in the Marvel films, I’m beginning to wonder how he causes Thanos to come to Earth. :wink:


#4662

Well, Tony did take a nuke through a wormhole and blow up his army in the first Avengers movie.


#4663

Yeah. this is all deliberate (as Christian has said), the filmmakers use Tony’s worse characteristics very well. Just as he didn’t want to listen (or even consult) anyone who might disagree with him on Ultron, he works on the Accords in secret, with Ross (and whoever else) and then springs it on the Avengers.

Surprise! Sign here.

He acts like a control freak the whole time; lashing out at Falcon, putting Scarlet Witch under house arrest, pissing off a lot of the people who should be on his side, and even those that are.

It’s a great use of the character, he does all the damage himself.


#4664

I was talking about even after the Accords are in place. He’s acting on his own through the majority of Captain America: Civil War when he’s telling everyone else they should be subject to someone else.


#4665

Maybe that stone in The Vision’s head?


#4666

What was Zemo doing? I don’t really remember, but I think it didn’t make a whole lot of sense.


#4667

Revenge for the death of his family if I remember correctly. The Punisher would have had a similar plan, only excecuted better.


#4668

Yeah, he was a Sokovian Intelligence officer who’s family was killed during Ultron’s attack. He replays the last voicemail from his wife repeatedly in Civil War.


#4669

This conversation clinched it! I’m going to buy Civil War on Blu-ray this week so I can re watch it before IW and check out the special features.
You bastards!! :wink:


#4670

Wasn’t there also this thing with him getting to some other super soldiers in Siberia which turned out not to work because they were dead or something? How did that work for his revenge plan?


#4671

It was a red herring to get them to that facility. He killed the other super soldiers.


#4672

Why did he want them there? He had this video of Winter Solider killing Stark’s parents that he used to get them to fight right?

Couldn’t he have uploaded that on the net somewhere and send Stark the link? It seems the whole plan is needlessly complicated.

I just liked the fights and explosions.


#4673

Now you’re getting it. :wink:


#4674

You’d never make it as a comic book villian if that’s your attitude, Arjan. :wink:


#4675

No, the video was contained in the same base that the other Winter Soldiers were. Zemo’s plan is actually incredibly straight forward and not complex at all. It’s just that Civil War keeps getting in the way of it. His plan is entirely to get his hands on the tape, everything single thing he does is to get him to that point.

Bucky is the only person who knows the location of the Winter Soldier facility so he frames him for the bombing to bring him out of hiding. He impersonates the interrogator so that he can get access to Bucky and use his programing to take control of him. He gets the location and then sets Bucky loose so that he can escape to the facility and get the tape. Without Civil War mucking things up his plan is to then reveal that Bucky isn’t responsible and that he’s heading to the facility so the Avengers will follow him there. Once there, in a facility specifically designed to keep in superpowered people, he planned to pit Cap against Ironman with the tape. Step A logically leads to B to C, etc. It’s just that the accords and the Civil War keep getting in the way.


#4676

OK I suck. Clearly I am not smart enough for superhero movies.