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Marvel Movies & TV General Discussion


The main problem of GotG2 is that they just didn’t build on the first movie… The first movie was about a bunch of rowdy characters dealing with their personal issues and by the end of the first, all of them had somewhat gotten over those and had found a family within the group… Then 2 starts and they’re all back to square one (except for Drax).

GotG2 should’ve been a space adventure, not a space drama. And unfortunately, Pratt is NOT that good to carry such a movie with honestly more interesting side-kicks…


John Krasinski is jacked now too.


Figures. :smile:


In the age of CGI I think filmmakers are learning some tough lessons on what not to do when you have the ability to generate anything. Specifically:

  • huge charging armies don’t work. Battles have to be kept small
  • dogfights with more than a dozen ships doesn’t work
  • CGI hang to hand fighting doesn’t work
  • almost human CGI faces don’t work. CGI only works on alien looking things
  • CGI human movement doesn’t work. They have to use body capture
  • building destruction does work

It feels like lot of this was learned for LOTR.


CGI Spider-Man literally made Spider-Man not only possible on the big screen, but incredibly popular.


Raimi mostly did wire work. He’s old school. Just watch the Doc Ock tower fight again.


But Spider-Man himself was achieved, in the webslinging sequences across the city, with CGI. It’s the old “You’ll believe a man can fly” bit. Believing he can websling is the same thing.




I meant maybe 4 or 5 different Terminators, not 10,000.


So more like Genisys?

Joking aside, I’m with you on the endless armies thing. I get that you sometimes need some cannon fodder for stuff like the Avengers climax, but there’s a risk that it becomes so faceless and relentless that it has the opposite effect - like with Age of Ultron, where you had wave after wave of robots to the point that you didn’t care, and they didn’t even feel like much of a threat as they only existed to be immediately cut down.

It’s always going to come down to a more personal conflict in the end, so it’s silly to waste too much time on that kind of generic battling.

The only time those big scenes of faceless armies really work for me is to quickly establish a sense of epic scale, for something like the LotR prologue.


The problem with doing a big battle is that it’s very difficult to lose the story in all the spectacle. To go back to an ur-example - Return of the Jedi, you can break down the battle of Endor into segments, each of which have points of reference to keep the viewer engaged.

  • In orbit you’ve got a huge fleet battle - dozens of ships and fighters, inferring thousands of soldiers, but there’s three established characters - Lando, Wedge and Admiral Piett, plus Ackbar to give the personal perspective. And if you break it down further, Wedge is piloting a fighter, Lando a small craft, and Ackbar a capital ship/the Rebel fleet. Each character gives an insight into a different scale of the battle.

  • On the surface of the Forest Moon you’ve got the commando raid on the shield generator. This is a medium scale battle, there’s Rebel Commandos, dozens of Stormtroopers and Ewoks, and 5 established characters to give perspective - Han, Leia, Chewie and the Droids.

  • And on the Death Star, you’ve got the most intimate battle - Luke, Vader and the Emperor. This is all character, there’s no extraneous action. But it doesn’t feel like it betrays the epic scale Star Wars has built to because it’s wrapped in two larger scales of battle.

Most importantly, in all three scales of the fighting, everything is comprehensible. Even the grandest moments in the space battle are perfectly comprehensible, which a lot of directors seem to miss out on these days in favour of having a lot of fast-moving detail. That can work - Babylon 5 had a few massive space battles with hundreds of thousands of moving parts, but they always had no more than two focal points on-screen at any time.


It’s interesting how the Star Wars series upped that number with the climax of each movie.

ANH, 1 - attack on the Death Star
ESB, 2 - Luke/Vader fight and Leia/Lando escape
RotJ, 3 - Luke/Vader/Emperor, Endor and space battle
TPM, 4 - Darth Maul/Qui-Gonn/Obi-Wan, Padme at the palace, the Gungans in the field, Anakin in space

I was kind of relieved when AotC dialled it back down to two.


I’ve always found Return of the Jedi to be a strangely made film. It doesn’t feel so much like a film than a bunch of set pieces.

The first act is the rescue of Han Solo from Jabba’s palace.
The second act is more like a bridge connecting the two main storylines, and ends when Luke leaves to confront Vader.
The third act is this really complicated battle with three distinct parts: space battle, ground battle, and Luke confronting Vader and the Emperor. And on top of that, Luke’s storyline has no effect on the outcome of the other two parts.

Which is a little disconcerting, as the previous two films, ANH and ESB, both adhered to really simple and explicit three act structures.


I’m not sure. Without Luke, the rebels may not have had a chance at the Death Star at all, given that a lot of the final act of the film grows out of a trap to lure him in. At best, the rebellion would most likely be back where they were at the end of ANH - the Death Star blown up, but the Emperor and Vader surviving, and the Empire only really having been slightly weakened by the destruction of the weapon.

So the basic structure of the Empire would still be there, and they’d be smarting from little more than higher insurance premiums on the next Death Star.


I assume that’s for Jack Ryan. I’m actually quite interested in that show.

This is a perfect example of why RotJ is such a great film.

I love how the original trilogy did that but also agree that it couldn’t continue indefinitely.


Jedi is very much about two things - resolving the plots left over from Empire (Han is frozen in Carbonite, Luke has learned the truth about his father), and wrapping up the storyline, so it’s split into two broad stories to do this - rescuing Han from Jabba’s palace resolves the first cliffhanger, and the duel in the Emperor’s throne room the other. But you’ve also got to wrap up the epic, and do so in spectacular fashion, so you wrap the back half of the movie in the second Death Star battle as well, and give everyone something to do so it’s not 30 minutes of Luke, Vader and the Emperor discussing Taoist philosophy.

From a structural perspective, as you’ve noted it makes the film messy, but the action and emotional beats are hit so well it doesn’t matter so much.


Jimmy Woo the SHIELD agent?

There’s a name I haven’t heard for a long time…


IIRC, in the Trilogy all the fights in spaceships were mostly shots of the pilot/speaker, with enough context so the viewer can frame the battle situations in their minds. Some of that in the prequel horrors, but much more externals and sheer number of artifacts on the screen began creating a visual jumble, leading to incomprehensive battle. In the afterbirth films, everything is so set-piece and by-the-numbers it quickly does not matter whether one is inside the ship, outside the ship or exiting the theater. Both main films keep so much from the audience so there are “big reveals” (which fall flat) and no connection to the characters; and therefore we cannot project ourselves into the characters and fly us some space battle, and that done went and pissed me off.


As much as I love ESB, it left a lot of stuff that needed to be addressed in the next film.

And then Lucas decided to close out the saga with ROTJ, it left a lot of heavy lifting for that film to do. The vision for the nine part saga at the time ESB was made would have seen the Rebellion defeated, and Luke would have confronted the Emperor in the final film. All of the plotlines – the defeat of the Empire, the rescue of Han, Luke and Vader resolving their issues, and the reveal of the Emperor – had to be included in a single film.

Even though ROTJ is my least favorite film of the OT, it mostly pulled off everything it needed to do. If it left out Boba Fett and gave us Wookies instead of Ewoks I could rate it higher.