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Game of Thrones - the TV show (Spoilers for the TV show)


#1731

Littlefinger comes across likeably in so many scenes, it’s easy to forget he’ll cut your throat for a penny, if a penny is what he needs at that moment.

He’s very deliberately presented as the flipside of Varys, who has and even more impoverished background and who’s also done terrible things, but (mostly) for what he sees as the greater good.


#1732

The greater good


#1733

It is mostly about shades of grey which is why I love it. There are a few characters where it’s difficult to see any bad side (mostly the kids like Bran, maybe Brienne) and a few that have no redeeming features (Joffrey and Ramsay).

The rest vary through the spectrum and after so many years of reading fiction across the board it is very appealing to me.


#1734

I love this place.


#1735

I dunno… to me, the true villain of the story, so far, is Little Finger… above anyone else. He’s the one who started all this shit, on purpose, just because of his ego and his ambitions. Yeah yeah he was spurned, get over it!

Cersei, for all her evilness, was thrown into that postion early on, and in truth everything she did was to protect her kids and put them in a good position (which totally back-fired, but oh well). That’s what any mother would do. So there’s that.

Even Joffrey… sure he was a little shit, BUT it wasn’t his fault per-se.

Maybe Ramsay was a little bit too sadistic, but in the end he did what he did for his family’s sake and their ascencion to power (and by extension that of his clan/people).

Little Finger is literally the only one who’s just doing shit for his own self and none else. He’s a full on prick.


#1736

Ramsay killed his father without an ounce of remorse. Everything he did, he did for himself. Either for pleasure or for power. I don’t think he gave two fucks about the Bolton name other than it legitimized him in the eyes of the law.

And Cersei I think hides (or hid) behind her children, in the end I still think she’s been just as self serving as Little Finger. She only started from a much better place, where as Little Finger had to start from the bottom.

But yes, Little Finger did start this all and is a conniving piece of shit.

Lots of interesting characters, which is what makes the show/books so compelling.


#1737

I’ve been trying to piece together how it all started and I’m struggling.

Who hired the assassin to kill Bran? (Don’t think this was Littlefinger, I think it was Cersi).
Who told Ned that Jon Arron was murdered? (Pretty sure this was Lysa, who was told by Littlefinger, who was having an affair with her).
Who prompted Ned to look at the lineage book? (Think this was the Grand Maester and was done innocently).

The whole series of events were started by Ned when he discovered Joffery wasn’t Robert’s son, and by confronting Cersi with exile. And Varys didn’t serve the greater good when he let Ned die (he didn’t think he’d be executed, but he left it to chance rather than ensuring Ned live). To me Ned is the architect of all the wars that followed, but I’m not sure if Littlefinger was pulling his strings or not. His plan doesn’t quite add up as he wasn’t to know there’d be an attempt made on Bran that prompted the Starks to question the Lannisters. Was he relying on the letter from Lysa alone to provoke Ned?


#1738

Joffrey in the books, can’t remember if it was revealed in the show or not.

Lyssa was indeed told this by Littlefinger, who then told Catelyn in a letter, who then told Ned.

It was Jon Arryn’s dying words, as reported to Ned (I think it was Pycelle who said it to him though)


#1739

Why’d Joffrey want Bran dead? Seems like a real stretch? Was there any motive provided?


#1740

He did it to impress Robert after he heard Robert tell Cersei that it would have been a blessing if Bran had died in the fall.

Of course, the idea that Robert would have been impressed if Joffrey had his best friend’s son killed shows just how far gone Joffrey’s morality was.


#1741

No, he felt endangered by Roose’s newborn son who was actually legitimate by birth. He would be the heir. And Roose was stupid enough to basically threaten Ramsey with it… So Ramsey killed Roose, the wife, and the child. But before the second child was born, he was actually behaving well enough and following Roose’s orders happily enough… or at least that’s what they showed on TV… I dunno about the books. Had Roose not fathered a second child and threatened him so openly, he’d still be alive, most probably.


#1742

Isn’t he just a pampered young kid in the books as well? I mean, he’s clearly insane because of the whole incest thing as well, but they’re kids… of course they’re stupid :smile:

I think everything was started by Little Finger who murdered Jon Arryn and got the ball rolling. Well, the Westeros politics part of the story at least… Who knows what’s up with the more fantastical elements (white walkers, etc)…


#1743

He’s even more of a whiny little shit in the books, there’s a scene in Winterfell early on where he and Tommen are sparring with the Stark boys which is like the “I’m telling mother” moment with Tyrion only moreso.

Littlefinger is certainly the puppet master behind the machinations in King’s Landing. He’s directly responsible for the deaths of Jon Arryn and Joffrey Barratheon, he killed Lyssa Arryn by his own hand, and he manipulated Ned into making his coup attempt - which helped to spark the War of the Seven Kings in the first place.


#1744

Did Littelfinger think the Starks would call the banners against the Lannisters just for Jon Aaryn?

Crazy that Joffery tried to kill Bran. It’s a pretty hacky plot device, like Frodo getting the One Ring because his uncle left it to him in his will.


#1745

[quote=“Jim, post:1744, topic:172, full:true”]
Did Littelfinger think the Starks would call the banners against the Lannisters just for Jon Aaryn?[/quote]

Not for Jon, but he figured that there’d be a succession crisis while Ned was in King’s Landing. Maybe not quite so quickly as hapened - Cersei is actually quite a blunderer so her having Robert killed when she did put a bit of a monkeywrench in his plans.

It is worth noting though that Ned considered Jon to be as close to him as his own father - and he did go to war when Aerys had his father and brother killed

The thing to remember is that he got terrible lessons on how to rule from his mother, and not awful ones from his natural and presumptive fathers - there’s the scene in the show (but not the books) where he talks about having a nationalised army, for example. He’s learned the mailed fist’s lessons well, but not the velvet glove. So he hires a camp follower to kill Bran, and gives him a weapon tied to his family to do it because he’s really that stupid.


#1746

Did Littlefinger kill Jon Arryn just to get Ned to King’s Landing?


#1747

Partially - his ultimate goal in the books, and presumably in the show as well is to be the ruler of Westeros, even if he’s the king of a pile of ashes. Killing Jon brought Ned to King’s Landing, and gave him a chance to break a link of the Stark-Baratheon-Tully/Arryn axis by driving a rift between Ned and Robert, either by contrasting Ned’s unswavering honour against Robert’s descent into decadence, or by letting him discover the parentage of the Royal children.

Cersei killing Robert accelerated his timeline, but also let him manipulate Ned, Stannis and Renley going to war


#1748

I believe it started when Cersei convinced Robert that Joffrey was his kid


#1749

Sure, but you can’t claim that he did everything for his family and their name if, at the first sight of potential trouble, his first reaction is to kill his whole family to maintain power. If he was doing everything just to impress daddy, he might have lightened up on his sadism and fell slightly in line. His dad already legitimized him. Ramsay was a psychotic and selfish piece of crap. Roose would have died the moment he became inconvenient to Ramsay, because that’s pretty much how that family rolled and Ramsay was the worst of it.


#1750