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Game of Thrones - the TV show (Spoilers for the TV show)

#3568

Actually, Littlefinger was a genuine surprise to me, I thought he’d make it to the last season, since he was basically the main villain and all, but I guess they wanted Cersei to get all the spotlight.

Edit: In fact, I really believe LF should’ve been the very last person to sit on the iron throne before it got destroyed, it would’ve made for a more poignant ending than the one we got, which was a bit unsatisfying in terms of character arcs an whatnot… Who knows, maybe in the books he’ll make it…

#3569

Nah he just thought he was the main villain.

#3570

He was though… Cersei, for all her villainess, is just a victim of circumstance in the end… whereas LF was fully in control and pulling everyone’s strings since the very begining. The Night King and the frozombies are just a hurdle…

#3571

Yes, we already saw the Red Keep sacked in Dany’s vision, so it’s probably going to happen. It would be ironic if she ended up doing it; I’m expecting the Mad King to come out in her at some point. Maybe Cersei will kill Jorah or Daario, and she’ll go apeshit and unleash her dragons on it. One dragon could nuke that place, and Flea Bottom would probably go up like kindling, killing thousands of peasants in minutes.

It will be interesting to see how everything ends up. Like you said, most of the great houses are effectively extinct (Baratheon, Martell, Tyrell, Aaryn, Tully) or on their way out (Lannister, Greyjoy). There’s not a lot of leadership left there. Most of the lesser houses we’ve seen like Tarly, Manderly, Frey, and Karstark are twats, so it’s probably safe to assume that that’s the norm.

They could possibly go back to the old ways before the Targaryen Conquest, with multiple disunited kingdoms, or try to establish some kind of new governemt like a parliament or republic — though with six episodes and a lot of plot to cover, it’s doubtful we’ll see the start of any kind of new order.

It’s kind of like, someone like Jon (or Dany if she doesn’t go cray cray) will have to take over, or Westeros will descend into anarchy, especially if winter comes and food and other supplies run short. Maybe Jon would end up leading what’s left of Westeros under a Mance Rayder model, uniting what’s left of Westeros enough to make it through the coming winter and give them a dream of spring…

#3572

Expect that he very quickly found himself excluded and no longer manipulating events. He thought he was in control but he wasn’t.

#3573

Those deaths are just the filler mid boss baddies clearing away for the proper villains. Neither Littlefinger or Ramsey added anything to the story. They rose as threats and got taken out and the main characters were relatively unchanged by their actions. They’re really just filler.

The other Kingdoms will invade Westeros if it’s as weak as it looks. I don’t see them having any negative effects from Winter Coming.

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Also The Night King has a dragon. All he has to do is fly to Kings Landing, burn it to the ground and he has a million new undead to command. Dany’s vision can easily be the aftermath of his destruction. That’s why I believe everyone has cleared out of Kings Landing to make a last stand in Winterfell, while Cersi remains behind to become the slave of the Night King somehow. Hopefully she doesn’t just die, hopefully he changes her to a wraith.

I mean their home is called Winterfell, it’s right there in the title where this battle will be won.

#3574

Unchanged? Sansa entire arc is basically a result of their actions. They’ve largely helped shape the woman she’s become. Ramsey also helped shape Theon’s arc heavily. And Littlefinger legit started all of this nonsense.

I agree that they are the baddies who thought they were the endgame but were really just catalysts for something else, but to say they left the main characters unchanged doesn’t resonate with me.

#3575

I keep coming back to Dany’s promise to “break the wheel”, and something like this is the only way I can make sense of it. It feels like a key scene in the whole series to me, so I hope they pay it off. It would be disappointing if we never saw what her intentions were, at least.

#3576

Ramsey was just a second round of Joffery. There’s nothing he did that couldn’t have been done or wasn’t done by Joffery. He was a do-over, just a repeat of the previous storyline when GRR needed when the timing didn’t align between Joffery dying and Sansa safely home in Winterfell. She could have stayed with her aunt for a year and got back to Winterfell and been just the same character.

Littlefinger was even more hopeless. They assigned the dagger to him and the death of John Arynn, but after that he didn’t do anything. Any side character could have rescued Sansa. He started this massive war without any plan or idea how it’d all work out. His most interest moment had happened before Robert arrived at Winterfell. All those scenes, all that plotting, all for nothing at all.

Varys at least is impacting the main story. As is the Hound to a much lesser extent.

I’m hoping Theon has a bigger role to play - I’d like it to be his story as much as anyone elses, otherwise all that time spent with him would be a waste. But Theon as a prisoner being broken could have happened with any of the side characters. The Mountain or Tywin or Cersi (or Joffery) or Euron or the Karnstarks or even the House of the Undying - he could have been broken and repaired in a whole bunch of ways.

Yeah she’s going to break the wheel but burn alive anyone who doesn’t bow before her. She’s just another wheel, it’s all just talk with her.

#3577

Yeah, that is a possibility - that she ends up representing the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

#3578

I can’t imagine how it’ll go down when Sam learns that Dany burned his father and brother alive. And how Jon will be caught in the middle of his two great loves. That scene wasn’t subtle, it’s a very clear indication that she’s just like her father and so for the good of the realm has to go. She’s her own kind of despot who’s murdered those who stood in her way or wronged her or are wrong in her eyes.

I see her and Cersi as alot closer than most fans I think. In fact Cersi hasn’t been bad in my eyes for most of the series, she’s done what she needed to in order to survive. We just don’t like her because she demanded the Direwolves be killed and she didn’t let Ned Stark ruin her life.

#3579

Dany isn’t insane. She’s made a mixture of good and bad choices, but she also feels entitled. She’s dealing with the limits of power and ambition, going from attack to defence. From allies to being alone again.

If Dany was like Cersei should would’ve gone straight to King’s Landing and burned Cersei with dragon fire, which is exactly what Cersei would’ve done in her place.

Cersei is a bit crazy though, she’s the one who carried out a part of Mad King’s plan; blowing up the Sept.

She’s winning now because she’s ruthless, but it’s cost her everything else. She’s got no family left now that her children are dead and Jamie has left. All she’s got is the throne and she rules over a land full of people who would like to see her dead.

And then there are the dead themselves to deal with too.

All of these “royal” characters exists so the Martin could explore different approaches to power, but I don’t think any of them are meant to be role models.

#3580

Sure, you can say that Ramsey was an extension of Joffrey (i.e. what Joffrey would have become), but that doesn’t mean he didn’t impact the characters and story.

Same with Littlefinger. Just because his major schemes mostly happened early on, he still is the one who set off the chain of events that led to Ned’s death and the fracturing of the kingdom. He also basically sold Sansa off to Joffrey part 2 which hardened her even more and also led to Jon heading back to Winterfell.

Yes, they thought they were bigger players than they were, but I wouldn’t minimize the impact the characters had on the other characters just because their schemes got them dead instead of the throne.

#3581

You guys are severly underselling poor Littlefinger’s impact… u_u

#3582

I think he was important, he stirred things up and kept conflict going because it benefited him.

But his death was lacking in impact.

It was realistic enough that the wannabe puppet master would be undone by under-estimating Arya and Sansa, but it was still a bit of let down that he didn’t die after several episodes of watching his schemes unravel.

I would like to have seen him running around, spinning plates desperately, before they all come crashing down and destroy him. Instead it was over in just a few minutes.

Obviously I don’t know what Martin had planned for him, but I think that the show, now it’s having to make more things up (having run out of finished books) sometimes under-achieves these big moments.

I get the idea that they want to surprise us, but the death of Littlefinger and the destruction of the wall both came very fast, and IMO could’ve been far more dramatic.

#3583

I think that was as much because of D&D scrambling to hit all the plot points they need in the episodes remaining as it is them working without a safety net.

#3584

The impact that “winter” has on the rest of the Known World is something that hasn’t been fully addressed in either the books or tv.

I think there are few lines in the books about Essos growing colder, and a comment about ice in the canals of Braavos, so it seems like winter will come to Essos as well. It doesn’t appear that the various peoples of Essos have any kind of tribal memory of a long winter like the Westerosi do, and even then, outside of the Starks and other Northerners, most of them seem to regard it as a myth like the Biblical flood.

The Long Winter, that lasts for a lifetime, seems to be some kind of mini ice age, so it would probably effect Essos as well as Westeros. Though Martin has gone on the record as saying that the climate in his world is not natural, so the rules of weather and climate as we know them may not apply. The winters in Westeros could act like a curse that only effects that continent for all we know. And if it is based on magic, it could also probably be turned back and stopped as well.

#3585

True, but they are now in the position of creating those plot points, rather than translating them from novel to screen.

Littlefinger kicked off the whole bloody mess, but he’s wiped out in a single scene, and it’s not a scene that’s even comparable to something like the Red Wedding. It’s not even as strong as Renley getting assassinated by a shadow demon.

The Wall is a major hurdle for the White Walkers, but they just show up and tear the end off it. They do it with a zombie dragon, but it’s still done in less than five minutes.

I think they (D&D) ARE very good writers and showrunners but Martin did these big twists better than they do on their own. They could use a safety net.

#3586

The biggest change since the basis of the books is gone is how quickly things happen, anyway. It’s like, when Martin’s structure was there, much as they condensed and simplified it, the slow build was built into the plot so much they couldn’t avoid it, but left to their own instincts, everything happens far more quickly. I think it does have something to do with the instincts of a TV writer vs. the instincts of a writer of epic fantasy novels - TV writers think in more direct terms of setup and payoff, I think.

#3587

I think some of it comes down to how GRRM chose to work with an ever-growing story and how Weiss and Beinhoff have. The original idea for A Game of Thrones was to do everything in a single novel, and then a trilogy, and then four books, and then seven. And theoretically Martin could choose to do even more books (assuming The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring ever come out) if it turns out he can’t get everything done in those two.

By comparison, Weiss and Beinhof have been talking about running 7-8 series for at least four years, and have been aggressively pruning plots and characters for a while now. It stands to reason that shortcuts needed to be taken to get everything into place for the end.

And I do agree with you that those scenes were too perfunctory, the acceleration in the plot is necessary, but not always great IMO