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Game of Thrones - the TV show (Spoilers for the TV show)


#2152

Qyburn (is that his name?) also seems an underestimated antagonist but not for the throne. His range of knowledge certainly suggests he may have unrevealed understanding, connection or allegiance to the Night King.


#2153

Nah, Qyburn’s just a mad scientist


#2154

Sure, but that ignores context a bit. You said she’ll burn anyone who disagrees with her. The Masters (and Unsullied owners) were monsters who mutilated, enslaved, and sold men, women, and children. Yes, her motivations weren’t completely altruistic there, but she was also clearly disgusted by the practice and managed to damage the slave trade quite a lot.

And the Dothraki abducted her and were going to essentially keep her prisoner forever and likely rape her as they saw fit. Because that’s what Dothraki do.

That’s more than some disagreements.

I’m not trying to say Dany is a saint. No one on the show is, and she’s definitely got a body count that’s crazy high. But it should also be remembered that the war never really ended for her. She was in exile and hiding since the day she was born with the constant fear of Robert or the Lannisters coming to kill her (whether that was a legitimate concern or not doesn’t really matter, it’s what she grew up believing). So yes, she has a bit of an obsession with getting back what was taken from her family.

Really, she and Robert have plenty in common. Both are starting wars because something was taken from them that they want back. For Robert it was Lyanna, for Dany the Iron Throne. We know that Robert must have been good a good leader and a conqueror. Because he did those things (and lets not pretend that war didn’t have a high body count). We’ve also seen that Dany can inspire those to follow her and that she can conquer. Robert would have been around Dany’s age when he took the throne and likely had little practical experience ruling. So it’s not out of the question that Dany could be a good ruler at the end of the day if given the chance.

I also would hold against her that she’s never picked up a sword on the battlefield. She’s not Brienne. She doesn’t have the training or physical strength to stand toe to toe with a man in battle. So she used the weapons she has at her disposal. In her case it’s dragon fire. And who would use that if they had the option? Characters like Dany and Cersei can’t play the game the same way the men do, but I guarantee every would be King in the series would have gone nuts with those dragons if they had the chance. So far Dany’s shown a decent amount of restraint considering the power at her disposal.

Also, it’s a bit weird to get on Dany’s case about burning folks alive shortly after praising Stannis as a good king when he burned lots of people alive. Innocent people. Including his daughter. Just so he’d be king.


#2155

Qyburn is like Victor Frankenstein. He pulled off some sharp stuff - especially with The Mountain (and subverting Verys’ birds) - but definitely has that Colin Clive vibe.

Didn’t Tyrion have pretty good insight into what Qyburn is all about? C’mon, he had to talk to Verys about the Spider’s main rival at some point! Or do all the characters just keep the plot points to themselves?

Meanwhile, Samwell seems to be quite the little Maester in the making, what with curing greyscale in twenty-four hours when no one else had managed in, what?, centuries? Neat trick. (Not as neat as how fast some ships are sailing, but neat trick.)


#2156

That’s a fair point about Stannis - I’d say he killed for the good of the realm but those initial burnings and raising an army against his brother and Joffrey clearly suggest he was fighting mainly for himself (I’m a bit muddy if Melisandre showed him in the flames that he had to go to war to save the realm).

Take Stannis off my ‘decent king’ list.

I find myself rooting for the Nights King.


#2157

The thing to remember about Stannis is that he’s Westerosi Judge Dredd. He follows the law to the letter, and when it turns out that Cersei’s children were fathered by Jamie, the line of succession falls to him. Not Joffrey, and not Renley.

Stannis didn’t want to be king, but the law states that his brother, his ostensible nephew, Danerys, and everyone else are rebels and/or pretenders, and the law states they must be defeated.


#2158

Which of course logically leads to burning his only child at the stake.

Absolute worst shit in a big pile of nasty shits.


#2159

I specifically didn’t talk about his religion’s predilection towards immolation.


#2160

I’ll post this video again that gives a pretty good look at Daenerys and her leadership:


#2161

LOL

Someone mentioned Veruca Salt from Willly Wonka. There is also an alt band that goes by that name. I won’t post their videos here though, you’ll have to go to YouTube for it. (Check out “Seether”)

Cersi looking at Euron reminded me of En Vogue’s hit “Never going to get it.”

Lol at Samwell for curing Jorah. Not bad for a beginner…

Also I still maintain that getting rid of Dany’s allies so fast was to set her up to be cornered and at her wit’s end. Now we may see some sparks fly. Olenna did tell her to be a dragon. ( I will miss Diana Rigg. She was such a hot fighter on the Avengers as Mrs. Peel. Before Atomic Blonde but I digress…)

Fwiw, there is the GoT Wikia webpage…


#2162

Yes but at that point, Cersei is the Queen and Tywin is Robert’s father in law, so… I mean, sure he “owes” the Lanisters but it’s still within the family so to speak… Plus I’m sure Tywin was very glad that Robert owed him, because amongst other things that at least ensured Robert wouldn’t just get rid of Cersei and find another queen, and given that it wasn’t a secret that they hated each other, Robert could’ve easily created an allieance with the Tyrells for exemple, and marry Margery for the money.

But then again Robert was just too busy getting drunk to even cosider any of that :smile:


#2163

I think that’s the thing with Robert. He’d be a great king when you’re at war with someone, but when the Seven Kingdoms weren’t at war he had little interest in the minutiae of ruling: things like budgets and trade. And when the time came to put away his warhammer he got drunk and fat.

Ned Stark made an excellent warden of the North. The North is mostly physically isolated from the rest of Westeros, and it’s made up of ancient families ho are fiercely loyal to the Stark name. The main reason Roose Bolton betrayed Robb was because he saw Robb ultimately losing the war he started. But when Ned got dropped in Kings Landing he was completely out of element and, even though he was fair-minded, he lacked the political skills and instincts to deal with all of the competing houses and kingdoms. Robert wanting Ned to be his Hand was a critical error on his part. Ideally, he should have gone with someone like Mace Tyrell, Tywin Lannister, or Randyll Tarly. Ned was just a simple country bumpkin.


#2164

I know the story told us Robert was a great war king but a poor peace king, but he was far better at peace that even he thought. No wars, no uprisings, nearly 20 years of peace and prosperity. The coffers only empty because of Littlefinger. Roberts drinking and whoring did matter, he did what was needed to run the country. He was just bored.


#2165

Well, there was Balon’s uprising. But it wasn’t anywhere near as big a war as Robert’s Rebellion


#2166

The Grayjos tried something right after the rebellion too, hence Theon in Winterfell. I’d expect a couple of chancers right after a draining war. For the most part the country stayed stable and at peace. Hasn’t been a moment of peace since Robert died.

When you look at the downfall of so many great houses (Tully, Frey, Martell, Tyrell, Aaryn) only 2 of the main families remain - Stark and Lannister (and there’s not many Lannisters left). There’s so much turmoil I don’t see how peace can possible come out of the end of this story. And I think the message is that the houses structure is awful for the kingdom as everyone just conspires against everyone else. I think the only possible long term fix is doing away with the entire house structure - but for everyone to agree lots more people will have to die first.


#2167

It’s ten years before the start of A Game of Thrones, so there was a 5-year gap between Robert’s Rebellion and the Grayjoy one in the books, and a 7-year gap in the show


#2168

Dramatically speaking, I think Robert is meant to be an object lesson, an example of what not to do, just as Stannis was, Robb too, and Renley for that matter.

They’re all the wrong king, they all had flaws that got them killed.

Robert only came alive when he had a war to fight, peace was killing him long before Cersei started plotting to assassinate him.


#2169

Ah, I thought he’d been in the Stark house since he was a little baby.

So far almost everyone has got themselves killed. You’ve got to look at what Robert achieved. And he was smarter than any of them - he understood how this world worked, and what was needed to hold it together. In that regard he was smarter than Twyin who saw everyone who wasn’t a Lannister as an enemy, and saw his own dwarf son as an enemy. And whored with the one woman he probably shouldn’t have.


#2170

Giving credit to someone for neglecting their duties is tough. Robert’s contribution, after his rebellion, was basically to let everyone else do the work.

If we’re looking to credit a character for the peace it’s a collective “Thank you!” to the small council.


#2171

A good boss who knows how to delegate. :smile: