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Diversity in Modern Society


Is there any evidence of that happening in places where there is universal healthcare?

I think the big problem is that US citizens tend to see socialism in its worse light. Essentially, Stalinism, Maoism, Juche and so on. However, there isn’t much evidence that national health schemes lead to worse care.

Ironically, though, I find that throughout the world, healthcare is a lot cheaper primarily because it is not managed through insurance in most places. Like I point out to friends all the time, if you had to go through your car insurance to fix a flat tire, it would cost $150 dollars and you’d have to make the appointment two weeks in advance.

We’re already in a system that isn’t truly capitalist or free market. It’s a bureaucratically managed mess, and that really applies to a lot of the industries in the country from telecommunications to transportation to utilities to energy production. They aren’t really capitalist or competitive nor are they government managed.

It’s more like we are in some sort of large trust-based economy with massive players organizing the industrial and financial systems to their benefit while limiting the power and choice of labor and consumers.

however, back to its relationship with the diversity issue, I do think that irrespective of the merits of the debate, no matter what one side argues, it will primarily be used to create division and that division stagnates as a political issue and draws attention away from the power of economic collectivization. Working class whites, Africans, Latinos, gay and straight, conservative or liberal, all share serious interests, but tend to fight over social issues and avoid working together for economic advancement.


To a degree yes, at the individual level, on a macro level based on overall experience and outcomes there’s no evidence. There are longer waits for non urgent treatment in some countries.

One thing often forgotten in the debate though is that using universal healthcare is not compulsory. You can top up with private insurance if you want to jump the queue or have a private room or whatever.


Yes. We have death panels.


Do you also have Soylent Green?


That costs extra.


How does it taste though?


We actually do, but then someone pointed out the name was unfortunate, so they’re called “Unexpected Death Review Panels” now.


Look, the time for nations to want Universal Healthcare was 80 years ago when they started building up the modern fabric of society. All the nations that have socialized healthcare have had 80+ years of internal investment to build up their networks. They used government funds to build their infrastructure with the advantages and disadvantages that come with that.

The US didn’t want to go that way. The individuals of the day wanted healthcare to be a for profit, private industry driven model. That had a benefit and a disadvantage. The benefit they felt was more innovation, more investment, more new treatments, more options for individuals. That has come true, the US leads the world in an awful lot of health treatments. It had a disadvantage too - it would be expensive, to the point that some people wouldn’t be able to afford all those options.

History eventually will judge if they made the right decision or not. I think they saved more people with it, even though that’s hard to hear if you’re one of the ones not saved. Today though we can’t just flip. Hospitals, doctors offices, medical equipment, surgeries - all of it is privately owned. You’d need to buy out all those elements, and the cost would be tens of trillions.

On top of that the US population spends $3.3 trillion on healthcare each year. The entire Federal budget is only $4 trillion. Facing a need to basically double taxes to cover medical treatment that’s not a realistic possibility. And no, most of that money isn’t going to insurance companies.

On top of that the current model works for most people. 91.4% of Americans have insurance and access to coverage.

At best what’s been discussed is a public option - the ability to buy your insurance from the government rather than private insurers. The problem with it is it doesn’t cover everything private insurance can, and it pays doctors less than private insurance. The private insurance industry is already essentially subsidizing the government plan. If more people go on medical facilities get less and segments of the industry could bankrupt or collapse.

There are real tangible problems with suggesting the US embrace universal healthcare, and to characterize opponents as saying it’s commie devil work is just an awful misunderstanding of the reality the US faces. It’s made it’s bed. It can’t get out of it now. Insert your healthcare bad joke here.

I pay more in health insurance than anyone here - by a long way I suspect. I would love to not pay that bill every year. It would pay for my kids college (another bone of contention, another example of the US picking the private investment path because they felt it would lead to better results - the verdict on that tactic is probably mixed at best). However, I’m close enough to the action to see the obstacles being faced, and I can’t believe that a decade into this conversation we’re still no further along than ‘the US should have Universal Healthcare, if only those ignorant Americans didn’t get in the way’.



I’m not sure it really works, though. I can hammer a screw into a piece of wood, but I wouldn’t trust anything I built that way. Efficiency and cost provided for service are important elements of healthcare like any business. Over time it generates drag on the business.

That figure is more than two-and-a-half times more than most developed nations in the world, including relatively rich European countries like France, Sweden and the United Kingdom. On a more global scale, it means U.S. health care costs now eat up 17.6 percent of GDP.

But let’s consider what 17 cents of every U.S. dollar is purchasing. According to the most recent report from the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) — an international economic group comprised of 34 member nations — it’s not as much as many Americans expect.

In the United States:

  • There are fewer physicians per person than in most other OECD countries. In 2010, for instance, the U.S. had 2.4 practicing physicians per 1,000 people — well below below the OECD average of 3.1.
  • The number of hospital beds in the U.S. was 2.6 per 1,000 population in 2009, lower than the OECD average of 3.4 beds.
  • Life expectancy at birth increased by almost nine years between 1960 and 2010, but that’s less than the increase of over 15 years in Japan and over 11 years on average in OECD countries. The average American now lives 78.7 years in 2010, more than one year below the average of 79.8 years.

There’s a bright side, to be sure. The U.S. leads the world in health care research and cancer treatment, for instance. The five-year survival rate for breast cancer is higher in the U.S. than in other OECD countries and survival from colorectal cancer is also among the best, according to the group.

As most people realize, having insurance is not the same thing as healthcare.


So is this thread going to get a name change?



Millarworld: Greatest Hits?


Diversity in healthcare. What does Dr Strange think?


It just struck me that in the US especially it feels more like a cultural decision rather than a practical one (Universal healthcare seems more practical for the greater number of people to me. for example, 2/3rds of Brits in a recent survey were happy to pay more for the NHS if they had to. Innovation and advancement don’t have to be just profit based either).

That’s not a knock, just a cultural curiosity. I think as the US population changes, you might see some cultural shifts you’d never thought possible. Who knows?


We need to shoehorn the latest box office for Ant-Man and the Wasp in somehow.


92% of Americans have health insurance with the model they have right now. Most of those who don’t simply don’t want to pay for it. It wasn’t a cultural decision, it was a Nixon decision really. But most people have been ok with it until the last decade or so when the cost of healthcare started to skyrocket.

Anyways, mod hat on for a second to say lets keep this on diversity. Damned if we need another fucking healthcare thread.


Ooh, it’s like Now 100 … we could have a topic from every year the forum has been going


Yeah but most of those are still running in other threads. :slight_smile:


Just call it the “societal debate thread” and get it over with =P


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