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DC Comics - The Rebirth is Here


#4704

That’s what I was thinking… looks like Superboy prime all over again…


#4705

Fan response to everything is negative

I see waiting until they read the story has not caught on yet

One thing I will never understand about fandom is the notion that they own the characters, or get to decide what happens with them


#4706

I don’t know, Chris. I think fandom is a lot like being in a relationship. You develop affection for your significant other, because of who they are, how they look, and what they do. When that changes arbitrarily, with no input on your part, you have to decide if that relationship continues or not. I think editorial sometimes takes it for granted that fans will continue to show up no matter what they do … wow … that analogy got dark really quickly …


#4707

Fans can reserve the right on whether to buy the comic or not, but I don’t know how they can judge something before they have read it.

The other part of this is that writers are under pressure to come up with new story ideas, issue after issue, after 75 years worth of stories - it can’t be easy.

Fans complain that comics don’t do anything new then complain when they try and do something different, there’s no winning.


#4708

I hear you. I walked away when DC messed with Tim Drake previously. I’ve refused to buy Heroes In Crisis for much the same reason.

But, being pedantic, Jon hasn’t been around for 75 years. Barely 3.5 years. Saying that they’ve run out of stories to tell with him, and the super-famíly status quo is a little bit of a stretch.

I don’t really care about this, to be honest. I like Jon a lot, but he’s not “my” Superboy (and I’m getting mine back at the same time as this happens, so swings, roundabouts). And, I’m really enjoying Bendis’ Superman work so I’m totally willing to wait and see. But, Jon means a lot to my son, and not being able to continue sharing that with my boy is disappointing.

The bit that, again, continues to baffle me is DC making a fundamental change to a character like this, at the same time that Dan Didio is saying he hates the Titans because they grew up. Schizophrenic.


#4709

It’s the old “illusion of change” thing again. People want to pretend everything could change but they also want everything to ultimately stay the same.

It’s interesting how many things you see become loved after an initial negative reaction. Damian Wayne is a good example - there was a real backlash at first, and partly because Morrison deliberately set him up early on as an asshole kid who was just starting a journey of redemption. He eventually became one of the most loved and most additive aspects of that run in terms of the overall Batman mythos.

The truth is that Jon wouldn’t exist if writers hadn’t deliberately chosen to make a change in the first place.


#4710

We judge things before reading / watching them all the time - it’s why marketing exists, to nudge us towards buying that item or another.

Fans have a level of attachment, a level of giving a damn to those things they are fans of, for instance I know some here are really pissed about the changes coming to Aquaman.

But do you want people to be fans or consumers? A consumer will simply drop something as soon as it fails to give them what they want. A fan may respond badly to marketing, may vent loudly about it online but, then, because they are a fan, will still buy the new issue, still give it a chance or be open to being swayed to do so by online chatter.

It’s the habit now to shit on fandom from a great height, but without it a whole lot of these characters wouldn’t still be around.


#4711

Yeah, the relationship obviously goes both ways.

But if from the writer’s point of view that relationship is “let me tell you a story”, then from the reader’s point of view it’s “I’m going to let you tell me a story”. And they’re free to choose what stories they want to listen to (and pay for!), and free to then have an opinion on whether the stories they listen to are good or bad.

But as soon as they start effectively heckling a storyteller in the middle of a story being told, and telling the writer what story they should be telling, the divide becomes more blurred and leads to bad feeling on both sides.

Honestly, I think a big part of the problem is so much information being given out in advance through marketing and solicitations. It leads to people making up their minds about whether a story is any good, months ahead of it being told.


#4712

I’m not happy that Abnett is leaving Aquaman because he’s literally spent 40 issues building the current status quo, by way of an epic and it’s all going to be immediately ditched - just as Mera became Queen of Atlantis.


#4713

Well, to be fair, a big chunk of the backlash was also how they just tossed Tim aside like hot garbage, and wether or not people ended up liking Damian, I think we can all agree that he didn’t really need to be yet another Robin… he just could’ve been Batman’s obnoxious ninja-son.


#4714

Him trying to become Robin was all about Dick and Tim feeling replaced and supplanted, though. About him actively seeking to displace them. Without that aspect I don’t think it would have worked so well.

When he finally became Robin under Dick-as-Batman, it felt earned by that point.


#4715

Which is why you ought to be able to recognise the same sort of unease with regard to Jon, a character that really made the Superfamily idea fly and was very well-responded to. For instance, Vik’s post:


#4716

I can empathise with Vik’s response, but I doubt that situation is the same across the internet complaints, not that I’m interested in finding out.

I’ve really enjoyed Jon as a character too, however we don’t know what Bendis is going to do here until the comics have been published and we read the story.
This might turn out to be great. Also, if Supersons is still running, I don’t think they’ll be taking Jon off the board completely. I’m not going to read the article to find out.

I do think this is a progression of what has been set up, Bendis took what Thomasi etc did before and ran with it to a degree. But bringing a guy like Bendis in, and promising him Superman as part of the deal - he’s going to get the keys to the car as part of it and carte Blanche to do what he wants to tell his stories. Even then he has been respectful to the work the previous writers have put in with his 12 - 15 issues so far.

Deconnick has done nothing in comics to merit a similar deal on Aquaman, yet she’s going to come in a rip apart the run that immediately proceeds her. I find that disrespectful to Abnett and the artists who were involved.


#4717

Thinking about Morrison’s Batman feels weird at this point, I was mesmerized by it when it was going on but a few years later I don’t think it was that great anymore. I have come to dislike Batman Inc. , I threw those trades out a while ago when I was making room in my book closet.

Parts of it all still genius though. I love the 3 replacement Batmen and the Club of Batmen storylines. If Morrison had thought everything out a little bit better and made the whole saga about half as long it could have been the greatest long form Batman story ever.


#4718

You left the safe, secure environment that is MW and entered the nether regions of the Internet? Well, you’ve only yourself to blame then!

Playing aside though, I’d be very surprised if any of those loudly protesting actually stop buying the book - they’ll instead do what fans have always done, buy the book and give it a chance. Now, that might be followed by crapping on it, but they’ll have paid to crap on it. Others will be won over by it, but for right now unease isn’t that unreasonable. (And that’s all that’s been posted here, the rest of the internet I don’t care about.)

I do want to use your last para to explore another angle of this too:

See, this is not just a question of purchasing entertainment, you’ve greatly enjoyed the run thus you have a level of emotional investment in it and that’s what get’s missed by the whole ‘you don’t own the characters’ outlook.

No, none of us own the characters but we have an emotional investment that translates to very real financial reward for those that do. In this respect fans are the shareholders of comics, regularly infusing the medium with cash.


#4719

Here’s the thing, though, Jon really wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for the fans.

Remember Convergence? Not many people read it, but DC used it as a chance to give a little fan service to readers of prior versions of the DCU (pre- the New52). A chance to say “goodbye”; one “final” hurrah!

It was in the Superman tie in to this event that Dan Jurgens decided to give the fans of the 1990’s Superman a going away present.

It was overwhelming positive fan response to this mini that brought those characters retroactively into the New52, and ultimately brought about the DC Rebirth.

It’s a weird symbiotic relationship that probably deserves a chapter of its own in a future edition of Morrison’s Supergods.


#4720

It’s also worth noting that Bendis isn’t exactly breaking new ground here. Yeah the details will be different. But DC did the same ageing up stunt with Chris Kent.

The story could could very well be great. But I don’t see anything wrong with starting to form an opinion before the book comes out. That is after all why they relese solicitations, previews and interviews. They abviously want positive buzz. But there’s going to be negative too.


#4721

For me, there’s a noticeable step down with Batman Inc. - everything up to there hangs together brilliantly, but Incorporated is a bit messy and doesn’t completely work (having the New52 hit in the middle didn’t help).

I still enjoy it but it’s not up to the standard of everything from ‘Batman & Son’ through ‘Return of Bruce Wayne’. Cut it off at that point and I think it’s a fantastic run. With Incorporated, it’s still great but imperfect.


#4722

I never really liked his run on Batman to begin with, with the exception of the Dick/Damian chunk of it, which I still like, but this days it seems more like an Elseworlds…

Yeah I’m not saying it didn’t work… just that, and to be honest, Tim’s the best Robin… and it kinda stung… specially at that particular time when Wally and Kyle got the same exact treatment.

I would’ve prefered for Damian to get his own moniker and his own costume… also, he’s a clone… clones always die… :smile:


#4723

The clone is dead! Long live the clone!