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DC Cinematic Universe - Wonder Woman, Justice League and More


There were gonna be 2… the 2nd with Darkseid =(


Two more, apparently…

Sounds kind of awesome, actually.


Yeah that’s possible… I’ve only read about the two, but more or less the same ideas… I mean, FFS, it’s painfully obvious that the plans changed many times and that it was supposed to be a much larger story. Flashpoint was porbably also connected (which is why it’s quietly disappeared since JL).

But hey, let’s give a round of appalause to all the whinny babies who cried oh so much about the Martha scene and the neck snap.


I would guess it’s more the overall lack of financial success of Justice League (and to a lesser extent BvS) that has determined the fate of these movies, not people laughing at their weaker moments.


And an even louder round of applause to all those involved in creating a Justice League movie that included Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman that nonetheless grossed less than the likes of Doctor Strange, Suicide Squad, Guardians of the Galaxy, Deadpool, Aquaman, Venom and Black Panther.

If the audience was there for the Snyder/Affleck/Cavill stuff to continue then it would have continued. It isn’t so they’re changing course.


That does sound pretty fantastic. Wish we would have gotten that but it’s not to be at this point.


The fact of the matter is - and I know it’s not a popular theory - Zack Snyder isn’t that great a film maker. He’s a great director visually, to a point, but he can’t tell stories. 300 is the only film that has surpassed expectations and the fact that it did was beacuse the story was an absolute belter and really captured people’s imaginations. He had a pre-made storyboard for that and not as much control. His movies looked amazing to begin with but that style has never gelled properly with mainstream movie goers, probably as it’s always attached to story telling that simply isn’t as good as it should be at that level.

Meanwhile Aquaman, which also has super messy storytelling, is hitting 1 bil because the director gave the public a movie that mainstream audiences felt much more at ease with in terms of how it looked and how ‘fun’* it was.

*ie. Not incredibly dark. Literally and figuratively.


While I would like to see Darkseid onscreen, all the Fourth World stuff should have been kicked down the road a little further and Lex should have been the Justice League villain. Rather than make a new trilogy starting with Justice League, the trilogy should have been Man of Steel, BvS, Justice League, without the Doomsday stuff and focused more on character.


That’s a good point. It would have helped WB/DC to put some distance between Thanos and Darkseid appearing on the screen. There were would have comparisons that could have hurt the film.


Shut your dirty mouth!


As filmmakers go Snyder isn’t as good as his fans say nor as bad as his detractors say, but he needs a good script (preferably one that is created without his involvement). Some of the best moments in superhero movies this past decade have come from him, and some pretty bad ones too.


I’ll take his glimpses of brilliance in the face of everything being one large samey product. I don’t have a problem with the samey stuff as long as someone is out there taking risks pushing things forward. Snyder was that guy for me.


Fan art of Ben Barnes as Batman:


Not popular because it’s crazy talk?

He’s worked with some really hard properties. Watchmen wasn’t easy to make, 300 wasn’t easy to make. He had to do a huge amount of world building, which he did convincingly. He mainstreamed those movies, which should have been impossible. He reminds me of Luc Besson, visually elite, structurally great but let down by scripts which he just doesn’t have a good sniff test for, and let down by actors not really doing everything they should. But his action has always been great (the Zod Superman fight is great if only people got over the mass casualties).

He’s really a guy who needs the right kind of movie to work on. He’s like an artist who can only draw certain things or work on certain characters. Like all the best artists he needs just a little coaching to keep him right, which he clearly hasn’t always been given.


To counterpoint Jim, I’ll say I completely agree. And I’ve said it a number of times over the years here. He’s clearly talented, but he needs a strong guiding hand when it comes to structure, pacing, and storytelling in general. It basically goes back to what Robert said, he needs a good script (that he’s didn’t have a hand in writing). It’s why Dawn of Dead is considered by most to be his best movie.


Actually I think we’re all in agreement that he’s a great director who needs good scripts, which is where he’s been let down. There’s moments in his works where he needed someone to say ‘maybe don’t do that’ but he forged ahead and it was the only thing people took away from the whole work.

Man of Steel and the neck snap (and the non evacuated city). Wacthmen and the Owlsex. Martha. All the creepy shit in Sucker Punch. The only flawless movie is 300 - I think that was as good as that movie could have been.

Funnily enough I think Millar had the same journey - he had moments in his books that probably needed to be edited out but had no-one there to direct him otherwise.


I’m looking forward to his next zombie movie.

And especially to the trailer for his next zombie movie.


Snyder (well, both of them) need two things. One, a caring exec producer who can and will take elements like Kal snapping Zod’s neck and saying NO! - but we can do it this way. (Zod needed to die, but not by Kal.) Second, a decent therapist. Don’t know if they have one or two, but I have low confidence. Those are some intense family dynamics (apart from what was/is going on individually), and need skilled guidance.

Said exec should also attend dailies and never, ever use the phrase “We can fix it in post”.


I’ll agree that he’s great on most things. For me I feel while there’s such great visual flare in his work, it can be difficult to follow his storytelling visually if the sound is turned down, so great scripts are doubly important. I think that you’re right that he needed (or needs) a guiding hand, but i think he needs it not just in scripting but how scenes flow into one another, what perspective are we seeing the story from, why a scene is needed and how to show minor moments rather that tell with big ones. When Snyder gets all that right, the result is stellar, and when he forgets about it things fall apart. You’ll have real visual consistancy in one scene, Bruce Wayne driving towards the damage caused in Man Of Steel is a brilliant example - set up and pay off, but then you have other scenes, like the Kryptonite heist that makes no visual sense because it doesnt clearly set up what Batman is trying to steal, nor does it have him actually steal it, he somehow gets the Kryptonite off camera. Stuff like that is rampant through his work. It may not seem like much but it really affects how people watch something. Aquaman spells its story out visually and you can keep up without much effort (even if, when you turn the sound up, no one has any genuine motivation whatsoever), and people need that in these type of movies. No matter how great a script is, you need it to be able to tell the story with the sound turned off if you want to make great movies of that type.


See I think that was more the chaos of the BvsS production that a reflection on Snder himself. 300, Watchmen and Man of Steel you can all watch with the sound off and follow what’s going on. And each of them has these perfect scenes. And on top of that the image on screen for every single second is always perfectly framed and interesting to look at. Considering each movie is maybe a thousand shots his hit rate is off the charts.

There’s a Zack Snyder movie that would be top 50 all time out there. Best Picture winner, global cultural moment. He has a Titanic in him, or a Braveheart or Apollo 13 or dare I say a Return of the King. He just needs to find the right producers, the right script, the right project for his abilities.