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DC Cinematic Universe - Wonder Woman, Justice League and More


#2932

I’m not a fan of that term, because it suggests that people who have a problem with Whedon’s feminism shouldn’t talk about it or act on it. If we project that back and outwards we wouldn’t have the important work done to intersect between the original feminism - which was very much a middle class white issue, and the issues that ethnic minorities and the LGBT community face. Especially that last part because there are still prominent feminists today who actively discriminate against trans women. If it weren’t for Third Wave feminists standing up against the pillars of the Second Wave, we wouldn’t have anywhere near the level of trans acceptance we have today, such as it is.

Now, that’s not to say that the left’s biggest problem isn’t solidarity, there’s truth to that bit in Life of Brian, of course. What we need to do is to present a unified front to the Right and (especially) the Centre, but never stop looking at ways to improve our own views and discourse.


#2933

The problem is that balance though. I’m afraid I do see too much agonising over minor details of Whedon’s plot points while forgetting that the main thrust (no pun intended) of any Michael Bay movie is focused on a young actress’ backside.


#2934

Hey, in Armageddon it was the navel.


#2935

And there’s definitely space for both (in fact, one feminist film critic I like is in the middle of a multi-part analysis and deconstruction of Michael Bay’s work right now). But Michael Bay has been objectifying women in movies for decades. We know that the main variation is which body part (as per @Tom_Punk) he’ll focus on. Whedon is held to a higher standard because he claims one.


#2936

Remember that time Whedon made a sexist joke about teenage cancer victims?
Yeah, Whedon states a higher platform, but he’s a douche.


#2937

I know Lorcan but that doesn’t for me really address the balance piece.

So he’s been like that for decades so let’s put it on the backburner. It’s like the thousands of tweets attacking Owen Jones for not being 100% for overturning the referendum vote even though he campaigned for remain. It’s worthy of discussion but…David Davis!


#2938

To some degree I also think it’s just Whedon’s ‘time’ as far as massive popularity and subsequent backlash goes. I think there are definitely valid criticisms of his work, but I also got the sense that these latest personal revelations were welcomed and seized on by some parties as it gave them an excuse to really lay into him in a way that has been quietly building for a while.

(I felt the same about when those extracts from his Wonder Woman script were published a while back - there was venom in the attacks that went far beyond what was merited by the script’s perceived flaws.)


#2939

That’s not what I’m saying though. There’s plenty of feminist analysis and criticism of misogyny in mainstream media. And a lot of women get hounded online and in real life for it.

And there’s also criticism of feminist media by feminists. To go back to the point I made about transphobia in feminism, take Germaine Greer for example. She’s someone who’s work I enjoyed for much of my life. She was a big influence on my acceptance of the women’s rights movement. And she’s a transphobe. Like, really horrible about it. So as someone who values trans rights and wants to support my trans and NB friends, if I criticise Greer’s transphobia, is that the left eating itself?


#2940

Again the thing for me is balance. I think the criticism of Greer is valid but it does seem to take up more time and effort than criticism of Jacob Rees-Mogg who proudly exclaims he can’t be arsed to change a nappy and thinks rape victims should be denied abortions. That’s a real threat as he’s currently favourite to lead the Tory party and therefore become the next PM.

It’s only the left eating itself if that consumes most of your effort. I’m not suggesting it does for you but it does for a lot of people I see. I do see 10 Whedon shaming articles to the 1 on Bay.


#2941

It’s a question of degrees though no?
Greer has positioned herself very clearly as a visible political and social activist with strong feminist views. Her attitude to trans people is not a blip or an error in judgement, it is a fundamental belief of hers. So yes it makes sense to call.her out on that.

Whedon is a guy who makes movies and TV shows about vampires, spaceships and superheroes. He has generally presented women in an equal or better light than many of his peers. He has made some poor judgements on occasion, likely not with the aim of communicating what some saw. It’s careless not malicious. He made poor judgements in his personal life him and the rest of humanity at some point. Is it really worth expending time and energy confronting and attacking him when there are more important battle grounds.


#2942

I wonder if some of that is our self-selected media feeds - I only discovered Greer’s transphobia when it came up in a YouTube video from a far-left anarchist feminist I like, and then found more about it on rationalwiki. But I heard about Jacob Rees-Mogg’s abortion statements on Sky News.

Similarly, Michael Bay’s misogyny is discussed in reviews of his movies in mainstream sources, but criticism of Whedon tends to be within feminist circles, or ‘woke’ sites like Buzzfeed.


#2943

Wait is Michael Bay an actual misogynist, as in he literally hates women? I thought he just objectified them with a little fanservice like 90% of all genre entertainment.


#2944

There’s an argument to be made, based on the way he writes and treats female characters in his movies.


#2945

I’ve mentioned before that I am not a fan of the linguistic inflation that means misogyny is thrown around to mean sexism. He clearly objectivises women.That’s enough.


#2946

He’s not even better or worse than say the Fast and the Furious movies which get off scot free.


#2947

Probably, I’ve never seen any of them.


#2948

Completely agree with the general stance, but still think this case doesn’t warrant the reaction :slight_smile:


#2949

Well I could say the same about Civil War tho… both hinted at a larger, richer subtext but both completely fumbled them. To be fair tho, I think a lot of it has more to do with the Disney higher ups who might want more straightforward movies, which was ultimately inevitable because… Disney.

Buuut, within that context, whoever decided AoU’s character directions made some odd choices. The most obvious is of course Black Widow who got relegated to a Hulk sidekick/love interest position, whereas she was so much more in both Avengers and WS. I personally don’t like what they decided to do with Ultron, becuase he ended up being another generic MCU baddie, but that’s mostly a matter of personal opinion.


#2950

#2951

Good news!

So that’s now official. The film is due for release on 13th December 2019.