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Casting Fantastic Four and The X-Men in the MCU


#303

I think much of that early success was down to the creative team that came from Marvel comics. I wouldn’t undersell Joe Q’s role in the success, what he did for Ultimates is what he did for MCU. And he and Feige came to loggerheads to the extent that Feige forced him out (now Joe is back in comics licking his wounds - it was all about credit and egos). There were a group of movies that I didn’t find very good - Ultron, Ant Man, Civil War, Dr Strange, that I think missed the magic of the creative team. I think the turnaround has been due to the directors, following from seeing what Gunn did with Guardians. And if you don’t think Feige is all about stealing credit, ask yourself why Millar, Bendis and Hitch got so little recognition for a series of movies that stole so much from their work.

I know quite a bit of the behind the scenes and politics of this that I can’t really talk too much about. I just know Feige is old to Disney but not so much at Marvel.

Hickman’s interpretation, another bad move. Millar had Reed pegged right (Millar knows these characters better than anyone). Reed should be a superstar. An Elon Musk, except better. Someone who’s utterly optimistic about the future, working as hard as he can for humanity. He’s Bill Gates, he’s an unselfish Tony Stark. He’s a superhero Stephen Hawking. Modern Carl Sagan. And on top of all that he can be an awesome Dad too. But Reed and Sue glorify education, science and exploring the unknown.


#304

That’s not Reed Richards at any point in the history of the comics. That’s not even any Marvel hero ever. That’s Silver Age Superman. In fact, that would be a good way to go for Victor.

If they are going to adapt the comic, then they should adapt what’s actually in the comics. That’s how Marvel movies have been successful so far. Sticking to the essence of what made the books so memorable.


#305

Wait, what? Didn’t he make up all the Fantastic Four stuff as PR because he knew fame would stop people from being afraid of them? Like, one of my first memories of FF was that they had fans and were famous and Human Torch had groupies. And The Baxter Building was basically what Stark Tower was with Reed trying to solve world hunger in his spare time.

I’m genuinely asking if this is the case or if I’ve made all that up as I’ve never re-read what I had as a kid.


#306

I recall something like that from Mark Waid’s run. They were super-famous all the time I read them, but they reminded me the most of the Kennedy family. Shiny in front of the camera, but a lot of trouble behind the scenes.

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#307

Isn’t that Elon Musk though? :wink:


#308

They would fit right into the present day domestic climate. The abiding theme of the FF is one of fear and paranoia. In the first two pages of FF#1, the American military is so freaked out by the sight of the Human Torch that they launch a nuke at him above New York City. The President must have been insane. A nuke right above the centre of New York City. That’s how much they hated and feared the FF. The X-Men had it easy.


#309

That would be awesome in a movie. It’s believable that our current President would do it, too!

Though I sympathize with the idea that Fantastic Four could be a good way to push “science,” I think that is not the way to go with any film. I mean, the reason Get Out and Black Panther were such good examples of diverse approaches to race in movies is that they were essentially good genre movies. GET OUT was a good horror thriller. BLACK PANTHER was a good stupid Marvel movie. They weren’t unremitting “social justice” propaganda that people feared they could have been (I’m looking at you, GHOSTBUSTERS 2016!).

If Reed was a perfect, heroic “go learning!” scientist, then the actual story of the movie would end up being about someone else who is far from perfect and has a relatably human personality.


#310

That’s Millars Reed. MCU has stolen prettty much every interpretation Mark has had of these characters. Stands to reason they’ll do the same with the FF.


#311

Honestly, the worst and really only wrong move both versions of cinematic Fantastic Four did was humanize Doom. I have no problem with the casting either time, but the role itself is problematic. Essentially, it’s prequels Vader when Doom really, really ought to be original trilogy Vader. Or Rogue One Vader. Doom is a character made for the movies. In the comics I can’t stand him. He’s the stereotype of overpowered, minimally realized characterization, just someone you accept because of his reputation. And he’s always monologuing! Doom shouldn’t monologue! So in the movies he’s that version of Vader who’s mostly silent, completely menacing, and his own master. And like Bruce Banner in Avengers, or the end of Empire Strikes Back, you learn the truth, in an almost offhand manner. He’s always angry! He’s your father! He used to be Reed’s best friend!

So that everything Doom is is the opposite of Reed Richards. Or any of the smart dudes in the Avengers movies. Even Black Panther. He uses all his knowledge, all his tech, for evil. He’s the ultimate Bond villain.

And that’s how you redeem Doom. And the Fantastic Four. If their big bad is a true badass, it instantly elevated their status. And obviously we never see Doom without his mask. But no stupid awesome cosmic powers. It diminishes him. Doom is the template for someone like Bane. Bane doesn’t have or need powers. Venom always got in his way. It would be the same for Doom. And Doom would be smart enough to realize that. In fact, to really emphasize how awesome he is, he does obtain stupid cosmic powers. But casts them aside and says in a low menacing voice, “Doom doesn’t need tricks.”


#312

I liked Millar’s Run, but the thing I remember most about it were all the characters who were not the Four. Even the kids were more the protagonists than Reed or Sue (and I consider Old Woman Sue not actually one of the Four).

However his Ultimate FF were great!


#313

Not really. Cap, Thor, Hulk, Wanda, Quicksilver, Pym - none of those line up with Millar’s take. Hawkeye, Fury, and maybe Tony and Natasha are about it.


#314

Some have elements but they get a lot from Bendis Brubaker Ellis and some, like the Hulk, from all over.

As far as the FF, I think Byrne’s run is really the best of them all. I’d like to see She-Hulk join the team now that Marvel and Fox have merged. :slightly_smiling_face:

Seriously, I think guys like Claremont, Byrne, Simonso and Starlin really laid the groundwork for what the Marvel movies capitalize on today.


#315

Hugely influenced by the ultimates. Even the screenwriters have admitted this.

I just bought that full run to get into it. I agree, they look like fantastic comics. That said, I think the Jack & Stan years are held as the gold standard by purists.


#316

Regardless of what the screenwriters might have said, I don’t see Cap “Parachutes are for sissies”/“You think this A on my head stands for France”, a Banner who turns himself into the jealousy-driven Hulk because he doesn’t want to feel small, or a Thor who’s an eco-celebrity with a cult of followers amywhere in the MCU. I don’t doubt that there were influences from The Ultimates, but it’s not evident in those three characters.


#317

Not if you cherry pick elements of a 25 issue run to suit your argument.


#318

I think Stan and Jack had a fairly limited understanding of how dangerous nuclear power and weapons are. Reed grabs the nuke and drops it into the water and the caption says it explodes harmlessly above the water, with Reed’s hand a few feet above it. No damage to Reed, no tsunami for ‘Central City’ (not New York yet) because a fucking nuke just went off in the bay. :smile:

Then the Mole Man starts making nuclear power stations around the world collapse and again, no real impact, no meltdown or radiation, they just break apart.

It may have been part of the general consciousness of the time. I was watching a documentary not that long back and in the 50s they had lots of people, politician, military and press talking quite casually about using nukes. It seems some time in the 60s, maybe after the Cuban missile crisis it seemed to be fully understood how devastating their impact is.


#319

You mean defining elements of their characters in the Ultimate universe? You could try citing your own evidence from the books, you know.


#320

Like radium used from glowing clocks to glow in the dark toys and jewelry made from the glass leftover at above ground tests. Hell, above ground tests within sight of a major tourist destination in Nevada sorta says it all about how well people understood atomic weapons in the early days of the cold war.

Definitely, the Ultimates provided the basic structure for the Marvel cinematic universe first and second phases. As the directors became more creative, the movies expanded into other sources as well as original directions. I think Guardians probably left the Ultimates behind primarily because Millar never really did anything with Cosmic Marvel. Doctor Strange felt like it really didn’t take much from anything recent in Marvel as, to be honest, there hadn’t been that many good Doctor Strange comics since the 80’s.

On the other hand, both Fan4stic and Logan certainly seemed to hint at Millar/Bendis/Ellis’s Ultimate FF and Old Man Logan. Iron Man certainly owes a lot to Ellis/Granov’s Extremis mini-series as well.


#321

You’re literally the guy saying you know more than the screenwriters who worked on the Marvel movies.


#322

He’s never read a cosmic Marvel book. He continually asks question like was Yondu Starlords Dad in the comic. He’s amazed how little from the comics made it into the movie. It’s prompted conversations about how little needs to be pulled from comics, considering his own upcoming adaptations.