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#1903

I’m kind of losing the through-line of the conversation a bit now, but yes, I think it’s clear by this point that Marvel and Disney have done really well in building up the MCU and keeping it all rolling along, regardless of what narratives ‘the internet’ chooses to believe or reject.

(I think the whole idea of heavy DC/Marvel tribalism is an overly simplistic concontion that only holds true for a small minority. There will always be people who try to impose certain readings of these things based on their own biases, but as a viewer I just want good movies. Which is subjective of course, but as someone who enjoyed Wonder Woman a lot more than Infinity War I feel like I can honestly say that DC/Marvel bias doesn’t play a huge role in these things for me. :slight_smile: )

What I think is true though is that Marvel have done well at building their brand and making sure that audiences know what they’re getting from a Marvel movie. So in that sense they’ve established themselves well, in opposition to competitors like the DCU.


#1904

I told the missus and we both sat down balling our eyes out


#1905


#1906

I think that really sums up Marvel’s success. Their brand is entertaining movies for everyone. Their first wave of movies established the brand that has seen subsequent films enjoy great success. The Marvel brand has made $15 billion (and still counting).


#1907

And yet surely the first thing every kid ever asks after reading two or more comic books is “Who would win in a fight, Thor or the Hulk?”

I used to love heroes fighting each other (in comics).

So if kids are hating Civil War (etc.) I suggest it’s a failure of that specific script, not a flaw in the concept of hero-vs-hero in general.


#1908

To be fair in comics there was almost always some brain control or confusion that caused it. Thor v The Hulk in Ragnarok is no issue because his savage side had taken over from being in a gladiatorial life for months. There’s even a little bit of it in Infinity War when new heroes meet and go on the defensive but then work it out.


#1909

Yes, that’s my point. There are ways to set up a hero fight that don’t require your dad to explain shades-of-grey morality and/or stupidly obtuse motivations to you. If some movies aren’t doing that, it’s bad writing. (Or they should be more plainly marketed as not-for-kids).


#1910

Thor vs Hulk isn’t a big issue because they’re the big brawlers and you expect them to mix it up from time to time. I would guess it’s the more intellectual characters like Batman, Superman, Cap, and Tony that you would expect to solve their problems among one another in different ways. Particularly in the Marvel film where the characters (as played by those actors) have a history of friendship.

Although I don’t really have a problem with it. My issues with Civil War and to a lesser extent BvS, as they relate to kids, is that they both felt a bit mean-spirited to me. With the Marvel film it was more glaring as the tone was more out of place with what came before (or after).


#1911

As I’ve said before, I’m always stunned at double standards. People hate on Wal Mart but love Amazon. People hate on Starbucks but love craft beers. The MCU has a clear history of taking the best of comic creators works and turning them into huge profit making machines, without necessarily sharing any of the spoils. And in particular Feige is champions as this wonder when he’s just the guy signing checks and things work out best when he stays out the way. They just seem to get a really long rope because we like them.

I don’t think this is true at all. I think for the vast majority of social media I’ve seen it’s overwhelmingly slurpy for Marvel and deliberately antagonistic against DC. Except for Wonder Woman, because no-one wants the SJW army set upon them. If you look at the meme’s that come out of these movies the Marvel ones are mostly positive, the DC ones are mostly mocking. There’s clear tribalism at play. It’s here in this thread where Warners are targeted for rushing their movies where Marvel aren’t really much different. Warner’s only rush was planning for success from the get go, rather than Marvel who took a punt on Iron Man and then decided to switch on the movie making machine.


#1912

Back in the days of the comic book Civil War - the one that Millar fellow wrote - one issue brought up was how upset children were when mommy and daddy were fighting. Now, I never really experienced that - my family’s pathology was a bit different - but I thought fighting was a bit honest. At least it was out in the open!

The truly difficult issue for me - and it is present here and now - is people actually do not have any talent for insight nor logic. Folks will fight and die for their point of view, even if that view is fatally flawed. This is, to me, anti-survival for the species. I have the imperative to either fix those folks or eliminate them. I suppose I got so Draconian from not getting any respect at all, ever, for existing. I had to prove everything; and if not absolutely perfect first time every time the punishments were quite severe. (I said it was “pathology”, right?) I guess this led to not respecting living an ordinary life, one had to be exemplary and even then one was treated very badly.

So there is this snowflaky thing going on where kids becoming upset in dealing with situations is avoided or ignored. Thar is every bit as bad and dysfunctional as my history. This forms humans who are paralyzed at life’s difficulties. The true path is actually dealing with issues as they arise, honestly and with a full range of emotion.

And Tony Stark is the world’s worst therapist! BARF!


#1913

Social media is reductive and overly simplistic. That’s kind of what it does.

Either way, though, even if you take those reactions at face value as indicative of general feelings about the movies, it’s not necessarily indicative of tribalism in terms of unfair bias from the outset - just an indication that people have liked the Marvel movies in general, and haven’t enjoyed others so much.

Like I say, I agree that Marvel have been successful in branding their movies and making audiences understand what they’re getting with a Marvel movie.

I think this all really comes down to the the fact that Marvel have made a lot of popular and successful movies, and some people feel rankled about that. I can understand those feelings if you support an entertainment company like you support a favourite sports team: it’s not nice to see ‘your guys’ lose. But I don’t think the vast majority of viewers see it in that way.


#1914

I wouldn’t say people are rankled about Marvel succeeding (except maybe other movie makers who see their projects being suffocated out of the market). Most rankle & ire is DC focused as they’ve disappointed fans.

But I definitely think there’s a fanaticism surrounding Marvel movie fans that we don’t see in most other places. Heck, I’ve seen posters go after critics who give bad reviews to Marvel movies.


#1915

That last bit is true and rather weird. Mark Kermode on his show said he’s been accused of being in the pay of Disney/Marvel when he gives good reviews, is ripped to pieces when he gives a bad one.

In truth he tends to give most of them an ‘it’s okay, not bad’ review except for Guardians, Ragnarok and Black Panther which he loved.


#1916

That happens to almost all big comic book movies, and has done so since The Dark Knight Rises. There’s a chapter in the book The Caped Crusade: Batman and the Rise of Nerd Culture about it.

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#1917

Feige far more than just the guy signing the checks. He’s much closer to an old school Hollywood producer like Daryl F. Zanuck, Sam Goldwyn, and Jack Warner.


#1918

At the risk of derailing even further, maybe my understanding of craft beer is wrong, but I don’t see how that comparison is applicable here.


#1919

Overpriced unnecessarily fancy drink products.


#1920

Don’t tell me that when I’m drinking good scotch.


#1921

Oh. I was thinking more from a evil corporation vs. small passionate brewers POV.


#1922

Well I can say that I’ve observed plenty of tribalism in the Warner/DC vs Disney/Marvel discussions… And there’s clearly A LOT more people on the later’s side.

I’ve also obvserved a HUGE anti-Snyder bias, for some reason…

So I guess it was a perfect shit-storm for WB :smile: