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Box Office Mojo


#3959

I’m really not trying to be combative, and I think some of this we don’t really disagree on (Disney being an essentially evil, scary corporation, for example). I just don’t see anything especially disingenuous in their marketing. And maybe we’re both arguing against what we assume the other person is saying rather than we’re actually saying, to some degree.

Looking at your response to Parker, I think that’s the crux of where we might actually be disagreeing. Yes, there’s an inherent cynicism and monetization of social issues in the marketing for Captain Marvel. Absolutely. But I view it more as Disney capitalizing on something that already exists, not as Disney creating it or making it worse. I have a fundamental disagreement with anything that strikes me as “everything would be fine if people would just stop talking about it” which I’ve seen in everything from Obama being blamed for being divisive on race to things directed at women and minorities dismissed as pandering (as if white men haven’t been pandered to for the entirety of media).


#3960

I made the point with Supergirl. 30 years ago it came out and it didn’t need to be treated as special. There’s absolutely loads of women superheroes and characters since, but Captain Marvel was still sold as special. It’s the one that set off the trolls. It’s the one that’s appealing to little girls. It’s out Wonder Womaned Wonder Woman.

30 years ago a movie came out and it was just a movie. In 2019 a movie came out and it represented some victory of injustice over women.

Women shouldn’t be treated as special. They should be treated as people. When you treat them as special you degrade them and their place in the world.

I think we all know if Trump wasn’t President we wouldn’t have this climate. We’re still dealing with 2016. If this movie had come out in 2011 it’s be just a Marvel movie. Of course Disney didn’t release it in 2011 but now they’re somehow part of the solution.


#3961

I’m not sure the timeline supports the idea that the incel/MRA/ComicsGate mob weren’t the ones that kicked the whole thing off. This was set to be just another Marvel film; but the wailing and gnashing of teeth generated even more interest, turning it into a rallying point.

That these kind of genre films are taken more seriously now means that this is a bigger deal that Supergirl, or Elektra or Catwoman - particularly with the last two where sex appeal was a big part of the angle; they were partially aimed at titillating men.

BP was similarly a big deal - sure there were non-white hero films before, but not on this scale or at the same level of quality.

(To hear that Captain Marvel also eschews the love interest thing is great news too.)

“When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality starts to feel like oppression.”


#3962

I don’t really want to expand on this in here, but your question is wrong. Maybe I didn’t make myself very clear, sorry:

There is no “white industry” because what you’re alluding to is already a part of that “racism industry” (since, you know, white is a race too), or it’s part of the narratives involved in that “industry”.

Same goes for the other one, although maybe I should’ve written “gender equality industry” instead of feminisim, because, again, it ecompasses all the sides in the conversation.


#3963

Red Letter Media, whom I love, have come down very hard on Captain Marvel and Disney, firmly in @Jim’s camp, and on Brie Larson’s behaviour.

I still don’t agree that any of this is a big deal and marketers are simply cutthroat (and that what they do should be seperated from the content) but they do make some good points and important observations, as usual.

Jump to 6 minutes or so to avoid the intro story bullshit at the start.


#3964

I was ready to hate this but they don’t say anything too horrible or inaccurate.


#3965

Oh so Brie Larson comes across unlikeable?

I’m trying to think of an expression for that… I’m sure there’s one… :smile:


#3966

Like fuck am I going to watch 30 minutes of this review show. I could be looking at granny porn or something.

30 minutes later…

Sorry to keep you waiting Granny. That video was quite entertaining and it’s nice to see some people call this movie a terrible movie. At least I’m not alone.


#3967

Yeah it was a decent review and they didn’t puss out from the “controversy”, like most reviewers.

Btw, I almost watched that google answers thing when it poped out, now I don’t know if I’m glad I didn’t or if I should… :smile:

But eh… as predicted, it’ll do a shit ton of money no matter what… must be nice to be a MCU flick… =P


#3968

I mean, yeah, there’s obviously an MCU factor, but there’s a limit to that - Ant-Man and the Wasp topped out at 623 million, and that followed Infinity War. Right now Captain Marvel is predicted to hit between 800 million and 1 billion+. That can’t all be, for lack of a better term, an SJW bump, so there has to be something about it that’s appealing to casual moviegoers (and it’s not reviews, since Ant-Man and the Wasp has a higher RT score).


#3969

Worked for Black Panther…

Let’s not call it a “SJW bump” though, so people don’t get offended.


#3970

If that’s enough to get them 200-400 million, then they’d have no reason to do a film starring a straight white guy ever again. I think the film has plenty of flaws, but something about it seems to be working for a lot of people, barring an astronomical drop next week (and there’s nothing coming out).


#3971

Maybe I haven’t been paying attention, but I haven’t really seen any of this controversy that Jim sees Disney stirring up and capitalizing on.

I dunno… maybe it’s one of those internet teapot tempests that’s all-consuming if you’re either in the middle of it or out looking for it, but something that 90% of the population knows nothing about. It’s like gamergate; I can ask random people what their opinion on gamergate is, and nine of ten won’t know what I’m talking about.

As a general rule, I try to avoid this whole SJW/anti-diversity/redpill shitstorms whenever I can. It’s just fucking depressing. When it comes to stuff I’m really into like Stars Trek and Wars, and Doctor Who, I can’t really avoid it. Being a casual fan of the MCU, I miss a lot of the finer points.

I do question Disney going out of its way to court this kind of controversy. If anything, they’re controversy-averse. This is the same company that kicked James Gunn to the curb to appease the alt-right mob. I don’t see them going out of their way to poke them with a stick to promote Captain Marvel.


#3972

The very goal of the term SJW is offense. So, just go for it. Millarworld is pretty monolithic, so you can use it unironically and be fine.


#3973

Yeah but what I meant is that, for Black Panther at least, there was a pretty organic push, or at least it felt more organic. Also, if we’re being honest, black representation in movies IS actually rather low…

So I’m a bit more cool with the fuss over BP… though I’m still not cool with ignoring Blade or it being nominated for an oscar over other objectively better SH movies… that one I feel was a lot more of a politically correct move.

But anyways, the point being, yes I use the “SJW” term, but I like to think I’m being as fair as I can when I do… =P


#3974

How many woman lead characters have we had in how many superhero movies now? What’s the statistic on female representation there? I think if you counted every superhero ever made you’d have quite a lot of them now, with a handful being female-led. There is no equality in this, and on general principle it’s fine to welcome another step into the right direction. I don’t think there is much of a leg to stand on in refuting that.

The point about Disney is valid, of course - as a company, their movies have perpetuated the worst kinds of female stereotypes for decades.

On the other hand, Disney is a huge company, and Marvel is a company within that company, and within that company of Marvel, there are creative people working and giving their best to make a single project special. Or put differently, I agree that it’s necessary to call Disney out for their history, but that doesn’t contradict praising them when they do something right for once, or lauding the creators of the movie and the movie itself (provided you like the movie).

It depends on what you call “special”. If you mean acknowledging that we live in a society that is still structurally patriarchal in many ways and that women are often in positions in which they have to fight for acknowledgment and independence and autonomy more than men do then I can’t say I agree with your statement.

Sometimes, you need to call attention to injustices, and do so explicitly. Things didn’t change because women stayed silently at home and waited for men to treat them as the equals that they are, they changed when they took to the streets.

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MeToo has shown that this is still a time for women to stand up and call attention to injustice and to the way they are treated by men, and that is an absolutely valid cause. And making an explicitly feminist action movie is just as valid, in the terms of this societal constellation.

On the other hand, I think the argument could be made that Black Panther, in spite of having a man as the leading role, is at least as successful in depicting great women characters and all the more so because it doesn’t make a fuss about it. It’s just that nobody in that movie kicks ass like Lupita Nyong’o, including the Black Panther himself. In that sense, I do get your point, if it’s along those lines.


#3975

If TriStar had treated Supergirl as special then maybe it would have been a success… well, likely not, since it was terrible, but with the right marketing they could have at least lost less money on it.

In a direct comparison of the two characters from those two movies, Captain Marvel would appear to be the far stronger female figure. Her name is not inherently juvenile by containing the word “girl” and the core concept and presentation of the character does not stem from a more successful adult male version of the same thing.


#3976

Is it out already? I haven’t heard much about it.


#3977

It has the standard scene after the graphics end credits (and the graphics are very cool) and then another scene after the scrolling end credits.


#3978

And there is no need for equality in this. I’ll go back to the romcom exemple, most of those are aimed at women and are focused on them and are female-led, and that’s fine (and you don’t see anyone complaining about that). The horror genre is full of movies with women leads, and again, no one is making a fuss about that either.

IF there is a real market for female-led SH, then those kinds of movies will be made. And I say IF because two movies don’t make a trend, specially not with such a gigantic push behind them.

If it turns out that women don’t really give a shit about superheros in the end, then that’s also fine… it doesn’t need to be a social issue.