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Age of Ultron - The NEW official, official thread!


#1

Because I - yes ME - knocked that last one so seriously off topic we were talking more about Man-Thing and The Punisher than the second Avengers movie.

So here’s the chat-back thread. It’s very interesting to see what people make of this. Fans are incredibly forgiving of the Marvel brand, but still quite a mixed response here. I think Jim is very on the money with his whole Tony theory and how the panic attacks have de-toothed his role within this group. It’s been an odd journey for him.

But Civil War I think will put it all back on track. If Cap 2 is anything to judge by I feel this is all gonna be fine! I utterly, utterly trust the Russos.

MM


#2

One element of the film that we haven’t really discussed much yet is Cap’s new team of Avengers at the very end. Do we think they’ll last long? Or will they be split up pretty soon once Civil War gets going?

It occurs to me that most of them have pretty direct and personal reasons to mistrust government - Cap, Fury, Hill and Falcon after the events of Winter Soldier, Scarlet Witch after her childhood experiences, and Rhodey after the events of Iron Man Three - so it wouldn’t surprise me if they became the core of the anti-reg movement.


#3

What was very odd about that scene is I feel Joss didn’t get who he wanted.

Think about it - Movies are all about escalation. Love what came before? That’s nothing - Here’s what’s coming up. It’s how things move from act one to two to three and these Marvel endings have generally been quite good at that, Nick Fury stepping out being the apex.

But this was odd and felt weirdly down-graded as the Avengers have always been guys with their own franchises, suddenly replaced by new characters like The Vision or whomever that audiences don’t really care about. So you leave the theatre feeling weird when I suspect he wanted Spider-Man and others that really made this feel like a step up.

One of the frustrations of doing company-owned things is that kind of stuff is out of your control (why I had to make Thor a robot instead of having the real one in Civil War and not having Hulk to play with). But it’s a nice compromise as you obviously reach an audience bigger than you ever could outside that machine. But yeah, that gaggle of heroes at the end was a weird ending for me, as someone who’s quite unfamiliar with those characters (I grew up on very early Stan reprints and DC comics).

MM


#4

I suppose it might have been a different end scene, with Spidey, Captain Marvel, Black Panther and what-not if Civil War wasn’t coming out in a year.

I’m starting to think we may as well have AoU as Avengers 2: Part 1 and Civil War as Avengers 2: Part 2. It looks like it’s continuing the story directly and featuring most of the same cast.


#5

I tend to agree - the shots of the team members at the end weren’t the kind of big finale that you expect for a movie like this.

I think Whedon has said recently in interviews that if he had had his way, he would have included Spidey and Captain Marvel - but the Sony deal wasn’t done in time, and Carol wasn’t cast.

I don’t think it was a terrible ending, and it kind of feels like the film version of ‘Cap’s kooky quartet’ - but this isn’t a team of Avengers that could carry a movie on their own. My guess is that it won’t last long.


#6

Well, on the other hand, a team featuring Cap, BW, Wanda, Vision, Falcon and WarMachine is a prefectly bona-fide Avengers line-up in my book. Yes they’re missing a Thor and a Hulk, but Vision makes up for Thor at least, and Wanda seems to be pretty powerful too… so I wouldn’t say it’s a downgrade per-se, but I understand how it would feel that way for casual viewers (although, they did show Wanda single-handedly defeating the Avengers, and Vision lifitng Thor’s hammer… that should be enough).

I’m still not in agreement that CW is the right way to go with for the next Cap movie, but I keep hoping it’ll be something different than the story in the comics (no offense to Mark of course =P). We’ll see… Interesting that both Cap3 and BvS will come out almost at the same time too, since they’ll both be sequels “hijacked” by other characters and filled to the brim with cameos and such (and both serving the “needs” of the larger universe before those of the movie itself as well)… It should be interesting to see which, or if both or neither can get away with it.


#7

Those are all great characters, but I’m as close to a mainstream Marvel fan as you’ll get on the boards because I didn’t grow up reading any of the above. I read a couple of Vision stories in a Giant Size Treasury when I was really young, but have otherwise never read a comic with the character as far as I recall besides maybe Marvels or something where he’s in the background.

I was a DC guy and only really familiar with the Stan, Jack and Ditko stuff which was heavily reprinted and the Conway era stuff of the mid to late seventies reprinted here in the UK. Otherwise, I’ve read Milelr’s DD and O’Neil’s Iron Man and not much else. So I’m actually weirdly almost a newbie and though the classic team means a lot to me I’m as unfamiliar with the new characters as probably most of the audience.

So seeing them all come in at the end I didn’t feel anything. People knew Avengers was a big deal as it was four franchises coming together. But these guys haven’t carried a franchise of their own yet and didn’t have that same escalation feel a Spidey or whatever would have given us.

It’s a small point. There’s a million other things to talk about in the movie but seeing all the mega stars leaving and the new characters coming in at the end was an odd choice, like things were ramping down.

MM


#8

I was never much of an Avengers reader either so I’m not very well versed in those characters’ lore, just got to read many random Avengers and West Coast Avengers when I was younger which is why I know who they are, but don’t know much beyond that.

But yeah I get your point… that’s what I meant when I say I understand why people would feel… I guess “underwhelmed” is the term here… by getting a new status quo with the lesser known actors AND characters.

However, I don’t know, on one hand maybe people felt underwhelmed by it, but on the other hand Guardians came in hot with a no-list roster of characters, and people ate them up without a problem. And with all the talk everywhere about the Avengers movies, it’s also possible people already know that the big stars will come back during the Infinity War movies, so at most we should have only one movie with the new team (besides CW, but we don’t know how much they’ll all appear in it beyond a cameo or small scene).

The one thing that might have put people off is how quickly RDJ went “I’m out” at the end without much explanation or set-up… it kinda just happened (and worse for people who saw IM3 as well, because it was almost the same ending for Tony, except it was better built in IM3 obviously). Same for Thor & Hulk up to some extent, but at least Thor’s getting another movie soon. But for sure that ending felt a bit like rushed goodbye which is not necessarily the best way to close a movie like that.

They really could’ve used more character-time and less robot-drone destruction on this one… considering that we already got the drone destruction thing in the first movie, and I’m pretty sure that at this point people want to see the characters interact with each other more than fight the villain of the week. I guess more of a “Bendis approach” is what I’m saying =P


#9

Tony’s abrupt changes-of-heart about whether he’s going to stay as Iron Man or not seem to be curiously in synch with RDJ’s contract renegotiations. :slight_smile:


#10

Damn those 4th walls breaking =P


#11

I figured Tony, Thor, and Hawkeye were just taking time off after a mission concluded, while Cap and Widow were staying to train the new recruits to work as a team. The only character who quit was Hulk, iirc.


#12

I actually was ok with this choice, if only because it routinely happened in the comics… Cap would lead the team (mostly) and the Big Three would come together for major menaces. It was Marvel comics way of building new stars and it made sense to me that the movies would do the same.


#13

Yeah but Mark’s point (and a valid one) is that we’re obviously gonna be okay with that because we’re comics readers so yeah, we don’t see those movies with the same lenses as say, I dunno, your teacher might. So for a regular non-comicbook fan audience member, that ending could’ve felt like some sort of “downgrade” and underwhelming because of that… I mean, what’s the point of showing up for an Avengers 3 movie a couple of years from now when we just saw almost all the favorite characters/actors leave the team and be replaced by some other random people?

But the thing is, when the time comes, I’m sure Marvel will over-hype those favorites’ return, so it shouldn’t matter that much in the long run… After IW part 2 comes out though? That’s gonna be harder =P

So maybe AoU’s ending was a way of preparing the general audiences to the inevtiable departure of their favorites sometime in the future…


#14

Exactly. My sister’s precise words upon leaving…" Great. So it’s rubbish ones now. Can’t they afford the good ones for the next one?"

I think that’s quite interesting because it’s how the new group absolutely will look to non-fans, which is vast bulk of the audience.

MM


#15

Yup, which is why I say that Cap3 is really a test Marvel has to do right about now (and not necessarily what they would’ve done for a specific character’s sequel)… How will people react to the very comic-book concept of changing the roster of a famous team? Will they follow the franchise and the idea of the Avengers, or will they follow specific characters/actors?

(also it’s a good thing they’re gonna be testing the Russos’ ability to handle a large cast and all that before getting into Marvel’s magnum opus)

But that underwhleming factor of the new team kinda ties to my worries about the Civil War sotry line… because not only did we just got a downgrade, but if they’re also going beyond and pitting those favorite characters against each other (therefore making some of them less likeable in the future) the general audiences that have been following all these Marvel movies might feel even more let down by it all.


#16

I don’t think people will be put off by the in-fighting among heroes. That’s always been one of the most fun parts of superhero team-ups, and provided some of the best moments in the first Avengers film.

Fans warmed to the hero-vs-hero concept of Civil War in the comics, and I expect the same will be true of the movie; perhaps even more so, because it’s something we haven’t seen that much of in the films so far.

I think Marvel’s continued success rests in the long-term on them being able to provide more than just “more of the same”. Civil War will be a lot fresher than AoU, I think.


#17

No one has had a problem with Batman v Superman.


#18

As someone in the mid ground (familiar with the comics but not a fan from way back) I did think it was an odd end to the film.

I like the idea of passing the torch to a new team and I like that Cap and Natasha have found a kind of home with The Avengers.

To be honest, it wasn’t that these new people are less powerful that was the issue. That final fight made it pretty clear that The Vision and Scarlett Witch can do amazing things and we’ve seen enough of the others to know they can handle the action. What threw it for me was that it was a bit abrupt.

What? Tony’s leaving AGAIN? Thor has to go back to Asgard RIGHT NOW?

Sure, we got reasons, but why not have them hang around at the end to help the newbies and then they can leave when their own films come along in the next few years?

It felt rushed.


#19

Yeah but I’m talking more in terms of “general feeling” rather than the specifics… What I mean is that AoU could end up being perceived as the begining of a “feeling” of bleakness and un-fun in the Marvel Movies… Heck, it probably is considering the plans for phase 3… but my reservations concern how people will percieve that shift in tone (taking into account that AoU ends with a death and the separation of the “cool” team… Civil War sounds like more in-fighting, then Thor: Ragnarok sounds pretty frickin’ bleak as well).

I get what they’re doing, but I’m not sure it will go down as planned. I hope so though… it will be quite a thing in the history of cinema if it all works out.


#20

I’ll concede having War Machine was a mistake - he is too close to Iron Man and them standing around a large warehouse had too much space. It would have been better if they made it a splash - the group in a small conference room, then walking / talking into a room filled with media folks a la Iron Man 1 with a hearty “Avengers Assemble”.

But I’m not convinced that the change itself is bad. Look at the Walking Dead - how many new characters pop up every season to replace other ones? Most of the real good shows these days have real change with a few regulars.

If GotG has taught us anything, it is that people are going to come for good stories first, well-known characters second. AoU is doing fine in the box office but Avengers 3 with a great story and crackling characterizations will crush it.