127 replies to this topic

[Christian U]

I think Lucas was only let down on casting. Make Anikin Skywalker a John Connor type 12 year old (rather than a Disney reject) and give a different voice to Jar Jar and Phantom Menace would have been a fine movie. The dialogue and plot are no stronger or weaker than the first Star Wars movie.

Dear God no, there were a hell of a lot more things wrong with that film than two actors. And it's not casting that's the problem, it's that Lucas can't work with actors. The grown-up, experienced actors like Ewan McGregor are doing fine, but those who would need some guidance from a director are terrible (see Hayden Christiansen in Shattered Glass for the contrast when he's working with a different director). In Episode 3, you could practically hear Lucas saying to Christiansen: "Yes! Like that! That dark look! I want you to look at us like that in every scene in the movie from here on out!"

[al-x]

Natalie Portman in that ripped white outfit, in the black leather dress and the lakeside gown (with her shoulders out!!!) in AOTC make up for every "Yiiippeeeeeee!" moment. Just about.

True, but there were miscastings and bad characters
all throughout the prequels. Lucas doing it all on his
own shows all his flaws in writing and directing. The
best SW movie by critics, ESB was not directed by
Lucas but Irvin Kershener IIRC.

All I am saying is that Lucas had some good ideas,
but needed others to tell him "This won't work out"
"This is campy", rewrites, and so on. The prequels
could have been cool even though you know what
was going to happen.


Al...

[Johnny Henning]

Personally, I think Hayden Christiansen should play aliens or other non-human roles from now on. In Shattered Glass, his character was sufficiently duplicitous and delusional that it worked to the actor's strengths. Also, he was surrounded by a cast that was extremely good.

[Arjan Dirkse]

I'm still in the minority regarding the OT...I think the first one was the best, by far, and Empire Strikes Back was a flawed movie with a heap of cool stuff thrown in, but still not a good movie.

That said, I'm sure that it wasn't solely due to Lucas's directing and writing skills that the first one turned out the way it did. I think Al-X is right, Lucas probably needs a lot of input from the people around him, and perhaps during the prequels he stopped listening to them.

[Rory Abel]

I'm still in the minority regarding the OT...I think the first one was the best, by far, and Empire Strikes Back was a flawed movie with a heap of cool stuff thrown in, but still not a good movie.

That said, I'm sure that it wasn't solely due to Lucas's directing and writing skills that the first one turned out the way it did. I think Al-X is right, Lucas probably needs a lot of input from the people around him, and perhaps during the prequels he stopped listening to them.

I don't think he stopped listening. I think he had just surrounded himself with Yes Men by that point.

[Ben the Obiwomble]

If we look at Star Trek, then I'm fairly certain 2 stories that would never have happened if Roddenberry hadn't been dead are:

1. Abrams revamp

2. Deep Space Nine

Sometimes, the person who created it is not the best person to continue it, especially when their ideas have clearly substantively changed over the years. There's nothing with that, but denying it while claiming there's a master plan just grates.

Now? Lucas is like a plastic surgeon who, having achieved the perfect look for a patient years before, manages to keep talking her into having a few more 'improvements' and is oblivious to the fact he is destroying his best work.

[al-x]

Hello:

Somehow I don't think that Lucas could stand someone else doing a
better job with his ideas than him.

I mean if you are a creator and someone else comes along and has
better ideas with your premise than you, how would you feel? It
depends if you can handle that or be miffed by it. It is a pride thing.


As for Star Trek, Nimoy said that Rodenberry wanted someone else
to continue his work with the original crew. I don't know however, if
he would have approved of Abrams ideas, like destroying Vulcan etc.


Al...

[Ben the Obiwomble]

I'm pretty certain he wouldn't have approved of either of the 2 stories I've listed Al.

[Stephen Galvin]

I loved return of the Jedi best, though I always thought Mark Hamill was far too greasy, and if I had a light sabre, I would have lasered off all my moles first chance I got.
Jar Jar binks was a disaster. The ewoks were ridiculous. Hayden C came off as a spoilt little boy. Natalie Portman looked lovely, and actually acted well in many parts, but there was no chemistry between her and Haydyn, so his murderous anger at her in the end seemed more like the the tantrum of a child rather than the rage of Othello. (Who was another dimwit, but that's another story.
Great mech concept work, but the story let it down.
Still, no one has come up with something as inventive technically in a long time. I remember seeing it (the first film) on the first run in the Odeon in Birmingham, and it totally blew my mind. Many would argue that I have never recovered, but there you are.

[Jim Ohara]

Dear God no, there were a hell of a lot more things wrong with that film than two actors. And it's not casting that's the problem, it's that Lucas can't work with actors.

I know that's the common wisdom, but it doesn't hold up onto scrutiny. he worked just fine with the original cast - all young inexperienced actors. They just brought energy and enthusiasm to the role that the modern crew didn't. Hamill's portrayal of Luke is one of the finest acting performances of his generation.

[Mark Peyton]

If we look at Star Trek, then I'm fairly certain 2 stories that would never have happened if Roddenberry hadn't been dead are:

1. Abrams revamp

2. Deep Space Nine

I'll give you DS9, but Rodenberry is quoted as saying he hoped someone would reboot Star Trek. It's when that starts to happen that the myths/stories at the heart of our societies become the folklore that they should be.

[craggy]

True, but there were miscastings and bad characters
all throughout the prequels. Lucas doing it all on his
own shows all his flaws in writing and directing. The
best SW movie by critics, ESB was not directed by
Lucas but Irvin Kershener IIRC.

All I am saying is that Lucas had some good ideas,
but needed others to tell him "This won't work out"
"This is campy", rewrites, and so on. The prequels
could have been cool even though you know what
was going to happen.


Al...

Empire is by far my favourite, but there are bits in Jedi that I love too. Anything OT with Yoda in it is golden, and the reveal and eventual redemption of Vader, including the whole battle of wills on the Death Star II can still give me goosebumps if I'm sufficiently involved in the story at the time, but if for instance someone had never seen any of the films, but wanted to watch one, and could only watch one for some reason (they're being executed for posting a pic they don't hold the copyright for on a website or something) it'd be Empire, no doubt.

I've watched quite a bit of the Making Of stuff on the DVDs for the films, and of course, there's more available for the prequels, so it's not entirely clear exactly how everything happened first time around. Many stories are after the fact, and of course, I'd imagine there's something of a reluctance to have people with conflicting memories or opinions on your anniversary DVD editions. BUT, the impression I get about the first 3, is that they made the films Lucas wanted to make, with changes along the way, as and when things could or couldn't be done.. By the time we get to the new ones, he's got enough money that he probably could have got a young Alec Guinness to play Obi-Wan if he wanted to, through CGI trickery or pacts with dark gods, so there were few times he had to really rethink himself. Another thing, similarly, creative stuff...all I know of pre-production character designs on the first tilms are the Ralph McQuarrie paintings. Like effects for story set-pieces I imagine that what was originially asked for was filtered through a few people first, and even then still subject to what could work physically. It seems as well, from hearing Lucas himself talk about the films, that first time around he had ideas for what he wanted to see, but by the time the prequels roll around he's saying "we need an alien. a bad alien" and going into a room with hundreds of vaguely different drawings by, admittedly very talented people, and he's just rubber stamping, or sticking a gold star on them to say they're good. There's no-one else to suggest that something might not be a good idea, nor does it seem the man is even all that invested in the thing.

[Arjan Dirkse]

I don't think a Star Wars reboot would work though.

I mean, who is going to do a new version of the OT? It's magic in a bottle. For some odd reason it struck a nerve with that generation, which is going to be impossible to reproduce.

[craggy]

reboot the prequels, leave the OT as is? then follow up with eps 7, 8 and 9?

[Chris D]

I know that's the common wisdom, but it doesn't hold up onto scrutiny. he worked just fine with the original cast - all young inexperienced actors. They just brought energy and enthusiasm to the role that the modern crew didn't. Hamill's portrayal of Luke is one of the finest acting performances of his generation.

I'm not sure I'd go that far. The acting isn't exactly superb in the originals, but it's undeniable that they all had a chemistry together. But the kind of charisma that Ford has is very rare and had nothing to do with George Lucas. Also Lucas was a younger guy back then and the actors didn't have to work in front of endless green screens. Lucas probably had more energy back then and probably had an easier time relating to the cast because of their ages with respect to his age. And I can't stress enough that Lucas really didn't know how to direct the actors in terms of the green screens. He wasn't able to immerse the actors into the world because the world didn't exist. Another issue he really didn't have in 1977.

The story was also a hell of a lot more fun than anything the preqeuls offered.

[Arjan Dirkse]

reboot the prequels, leave the OT as is? then follow up with eps 7, 8 and 9?

Hadn't thought about it that way...but I don't think that will happen. It would be like saying the prequels were a complete mistake they had to do over...it would be interpreted as a show of disrespect towards Lucas.

Also, I am not sure it could work. I think it was a tricky idea to begin with, and it's probably going to be impossible to come up with a story to satisfy the fans that were disappointed with the prequels and who all have their own vague version of Vader's history in their heads.

I think the best way forward is letting it rest for a while, and slowly start over again, finding the right people and the right story to make it interesting again for a new generation and do ep. 7 8 and 9.

And maybe Lucas could have an "unfortunate accident"...

[Christian U]

I know that's the common wisdom, but it doesn't hold up onto scrutiny. he worked just fine with the original cast - all young inexperienced actors.

Uh, well, for one thing he did a lot of things right that he did wrong the second time around, for the other, the first one of the original movies was the only one of those that he actually directed, wasn't it?

Hamill's portrayal of Luke is one of the finest acting performances of his generation.

I think that is a bit of an exaggeration.

Edited by Christian U, 19 January 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[Chris D]

Uh, well, for one thing he did a lot of things right that he did wrong the second time around

Hell, he did a lot of things right the first time that he went back and screwed up within those same damn movies. In fact, he hasn't stopped doing that yet.

[steveuk]

Lucas had a miserable time directing Episode IV, it's why he gave up on the job for decades and turned to producing.

Practically everyone involved with the movie has confirmed how stressful and uncertain it was. The Cinematographer, Gilbert Taylor, referred to Chewbacca on set as "The Dog".

The film's eventual success was a surprise to all concerned.

[Christian U]

Maybe that's why Lucas' direction worked so well with that movie, who knows?