163 replies to this topic

[Eduardo]

And because I am bored... a small guide to canon:

• 1887 - A Study in Scarlet (Novel)
• 1890 - The Sign of the Four (Novel)
• 1892 - The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes (Short Story Collection)
  
  • 1891 - A Scandal in Bohemia
  • 1891 - The Adventure of the Red-Headed League
  • 1891 - A Case of Identity
  • 1891 - The Boscombe Valley Mystery
  • 1891 - The Five Orange Pips
  • 1891 - The Man with the Twisted Lip
  • 1892 - The Adventure of the Blue Carbuncle
  • 1892 - The Adventure of the Speckled Band
  • 1892 - The Adventure of the Engineer's Thumb
  • 1892 - The Adventure of the Noble Bachelor
  • 1892 - The Adventure of the Beryl Coronet
  • 1892 - The Adventure of the Copper Beeches
• 1893 - The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes (Short Story Collection)
  
  • 1892 - Silver Blaze
  • 1892 - The Adventure of the Cardboard Box
  • 1893 - The Adventure of the Yellow Face
  • 1893 - The Stockbroker's Clerk
  • 1893 - The Gloria Scott
  • 1893 - The Musgrave Ritual
  • 1893 - The Adventure of the Reigate Squire
  • 1893 - The Adventure of the Crooked Man
  • 1893 - The Resident Patient
  • 1893 - The Greek Interpreter
  • 1893 - The Naval Treaty
  • 1893 - The Final Problem
• 1896 - The Field Bazaar (Short Parody, Apocrypha) *
• 1898 - The Lost Special (Short Story, Apocrypha) *
• 1898 - The Man With the Watches (Short Story, Apocrypha) *
• 1902 - The Hound of the Baskervilles (Novel)
• 1905 - The Return of Sherlock Holmes (Short Story Collection)
  
  • 1903 - The Adventure of the Empty House
  • 1903 - The Adventure of the Norwood Builder
  • 1903 - The Adventure of the Dancing Men
  • 1903 - The Adventure of the Solitary Cyclist
  • 1903 - The Adventure of the Priory School
  • 1904 - The Adventure of Black Peter
  • 1904 - The Adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton
  • 1904 - The Adventure of the Six Napoleons
  • 1904 - The Adventure of the Three Students
  • 1904 - The Adventure of the Golden Pince-Nez
  • 1904 - The Adventure of the Missing Three-Quarter
  • 1904 - The Adventure of the Abbey Grange
• 1917 - His Last Bow (Short Story Collection)
  
  • 1904 - The Adventure of the Second Stain
  • 1908 - The Adventure of Wisteria Lodge
  • 1910 - The Adventure of the Devil's Foot
  • 1911 - The Disappearance of Lady Frances Carfax
  • 1911 - The Adventure of the Red Circle
  • 1912 - The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans
  • 1913 - The Adventure of the Dying Detective
  • 1917 - His Last Bow
• 1915 - The Valley of Fear (Novel)
• 1924 - How Watson Learned The Trick (Short Parody, Apocrypha) *
• 1927 - The Case-Book of Sherlock Holmes (Short Story Collection)
  
  • 1921 - The Adventure of the Mazarin Stone
  • 1922 - The Problem of Thor Bridge
  • 1923 - The Adventure of the Creeping Man
  • 1924 - The Adventure of the Sussex Vampire
  • 1924 - The Adventure of the Three Garridebs
  • 1924 - The Adventure of the Illustrious Client
  • 1926 - The Adventure of the Three Gables
  • 1926 - The Adventure of the Blanched Soldier
  • 1926 - The Adventure of the Lion's Mane
  • 1926 - The Adventure of the Retired Colourman
  • 1927 - The Adventure of the Veiled Lodger
  • 1927 - The Adventure of Shoscombe Old Place

Apocrypha (By Doyle):

• Both The Lost Special & The Man With the Watches were published in The Strand Magazine during the years that Sherlock Holmes was dead. In the first story, concerning a missing train, an explanation to the mystery is proposed by "an amateur reasoner of some celebrity". Similar references are included in the second story.
• The Field Bazaar was written by Doyle for a magazine for a fundraising event.
• How Watson Learned The Trick was written for the library of Queen Mary's Doll's House.

Items of Note:

• In 1947 Cosmopolitan Magazine published a short story called "The Case of the Man Who Was Wanted", that was found among Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's papers and believed to be a canonical lost tale (the 61st one). It was later discovered to have been written by Arthur Whitaker and sent to Doyle hoping for a collaboration. Doyle bought the story, but never used it. *
• In 1954 one of Doyle's sons, Arthur, published with the collaboration of John Dickson Carr, 12 short stories based on cases mentioned in the canonical tales under the title "The Exploits of Sherlock Holmes" * :
  
  • The Adventure of the Seven Clocks
  • The Adventure of the Gold Hunter
  • The Adventure of the Wax Gamblers
  • The Adventure of the Highgate Miracle
  • The Adventure of the Black Baronet
  • The Adventure of the Sealed Room
  • The Adventure of Foulkes Rath
  • The Adventure of the Abbas Ruby
  • The Adventure of the Dark Angels
  • The Adventure of the Two Women
  • The Adventure of the Deptford Horror
  • The Adventure of the Red Widow
• In 2011, the Doyle Estate commisioned Anthony Horowitz to write a full lenght Holmes novel, The House of Silk.

[Christian U]

More fleshed out how, though? In terms of back story? They couldn't really do that, or the "he's just an actor" plot wouldn't have worked.

I quite liked the way they handled Moriarty - while Andrew Scott's performance wasn't exactly on a par with Heath Ledger's Joker, that's clearly the kind of villain they wanted him to be - mysterious, powerful, and psychotic - somebody who was in it for the game, rather than any rational reason like financial gain.

Yeah, I thought that Moriarty was actually among the things that worked best in the episode. And I also liked Scott's performance a lot; he managed to make him sinister and brilliant but also just weird and somehow off, with his slurred speech and sudden mood changes. They give him all the motivation he needs at the end - the game isn't even enough anymore, he's a species of one and he's lonely, and he had recognised a kindred spirit in Holmes. Fighting him is the only way he knows to court him, basically.

[Patrick A]

I really enjoyed that.

it's sorta important to remember that Moriarty's plan to make the public turn on Holmes (which I completely believe would happen) didn't have to hold up forever, just long enough for him to get to the end of it (his forcing Sherlock to kill himself in disgrace).

I have no clue how they are going to pull off the Resurrection.

[Eduardo]

What kills me is that we will have to wait until 2013 to get some resolution.

[Eduardo]

Meanwhile...

http://www.deadline....ot/#more-215837

CBS got on the board this morning with its first drama pilot orders this season. Greenlighted are Baby Big Shot, a legal drama written by Dana Calvo (TNT’s Franklin & Bash) and executive produced by Kevin Falls, who will serve as showrunner, and Elementary, a modern-day Sherlock Holmes series from writer Rob Doherty.

Elementary, from CBS TV Studios and studio-based Timberman/ Beverly Prods., is described as a modern take on the cases of the pipe-smoking private eye created by Arthur Conan Doyle, with Sherlock now living in New York City. Veteran Medium writer-producer Doherty wrote the script and is executive producing the project with Sarah Timberman & Carl Beverly. Sherlock Holmes is very much in the zeitgeist right now with Guy Ritchie’s movie franchise starring Robert Downey Jr. and BBC’s hit series Sherlock starring Benedict Cumberbatch, which was just renewed for third season.

A modern Sherlock in NYC...

Worst case, they can team-up and do a crossover with the BBC version...

[steveuk]

Meanwhile...

http://www.deadline....ot/#more-215837



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A modern Sherlock in NYC...

Worst case, they can team-up and do a crossover with the BBC version...

If it's good, it could be a BEST case.

[Sanjay]

Isn't American modern Holmes - House?

Cheers for that list Eduardo, I've been meaning to go through the entire collection as I've only read about a third of those.

[Rory Abel]

Isn't American modern Holmes - House?

Not to get into this again but no. Sherlock is clearly the inspiration for House but other than some superficial surface details they're very different characters.

[Ogul]

Not to get into this again but no. Sherlock is clearly the inspiration for House but other than some superficial surface details they're very different characters.

I kind of think the opposite, that other than some superficial surface details they're almost identical characters. At the very least this is true enough of the TV version of Sherlock. The characters of Holmes and Watson on the show are very similar to the characters of House and Wilson on House, the difference is just the setting and objectives they pursue with that character.

[Rory Abel]

I kind of think the opposite, that other than some superficial surface details they're almost identical characters. At the very least this is true enough of the TV version of Sherlock. The characters of Holmes and Watson on the show are very similar to the characters of House and Wilson on House, the difference is just the setting and objectives they pursue with that character.

And that House doesn't use deductive reasoning at all. The show follows the same fomula for every episode: several misdiagnosis followed by a leap in logic that proves correct.

[Ogul]

And that House doesn't use deductive reasoning at all. The show follows the same fomula for every episode: several misdiagnosis followed by a leap in logic that proves correct.

It does use deduction, it just shows the work a bit more. He makes the best deductive analysis of the evidence available at the beginning, and then tests that theory. When it fails, more evidence is added and a new deduction takes that into account. Repeat until the last 15 minutes in which he finally has the complete evidence he needs to rule out all other options. It's a fairly formulaic approach, but that's the downside to a series that needs to produce more than three episodes per season.

[Rory Abel]

It does use deduction, it just shows the work a bit more. He makes the best deductive analysis of the evidence available at the beginning, and then tests that theory. When it fails, more evidence is added and a new deduction takes that into account. Repeat until the last 15 minutes in which he finally has the complete evidence he needs to rule out all other options.

It's not deductive. Its usually a case of his underlings look at the symptoms and making an educated guess while he comes up with something completely different. He uses the scientific method sure but thats not the same. He's guessing until the very end.

It's a fairly formulaic approach, but that's the downside to a series that needs to produce more than three episodes per season.

1887 - A Study in Scarlet (Novel)

• 1890 - The Sign of the Four (Novel)
• 1892 - The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes (Short Story Collection)
  
  • 1891 - A Scandal in Bohemia
  • 1891 - The Adventure of the Red-Headed League
  • 1891 - A Case of Identity
  • 1891 - The Boscombe Valley Mystery
  • 1891 - The Five Orange Pips
  • 1891 - The Man with the Twisted Lip
  • 1892 - The Adventure of the Blue Carbuncle
  • 1892 - The Adventure of the Speckled Band
  • 1892 - The Adventure of the Engineer's Thumb
  • 1892 - The Adventure of the Noble Bachelor
  • 1892 - The Adventure of the Beryl Coronet
  • 1892 - The Adventure of the Copper Beeches
• 1893 - The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes (Short Story Collection)
  
  • 1892 - Silver Blaze
  • 1892 - The Adventure of the Cardboard Box
  • 1893 - The Adventure of the Yellow Face
  • 1893 - The Stockbroker's Clerk
  • 1893 - The Gloria Scott
  • 1893 - The Musgrave Ritual
  • 1893 - The Adventure of the Reigate Squire
  • 1893 - The Adventure of the Crooked Man
  • 1893 - The Resident Patient
  • 1893 - The Greek Interpreter
  • 1893 - The Naval Treaty
  • 1893 - The Final Problem
• 1896 - The Field Bazaar (Short Parody, Apocrypha) *
• 1898 - The Lost Special (Short Story, Apocrypha) *
• 1898 - The Man With the Watches (Short Story, Apocrypha) *
• 1902 - The Hound of the Baskervilles (Novel)
• 1905 - The Return of Sherlock Holmes (Short Story Collection)
  
  • 1903 - The Adventure of the Empty House
  • 1903 - The Adventure of the Norwood Builder
  • 1903 - The Adventure of the Dancing Men
  • 1903 - The Adventure of the Solitary Cyclist
  • 1903 - The Adventure of the Priory School
  • 1904 - The Adventure of Black Peter
  • 1904 - The Adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton
  • 1904 - The Adventure of the Six Napoleons
  • 1904 - The Adventure of the Three Students
  • 1904 - The Adventure of the Golden Pince-Nez
  • 1904 - The Adventure of the Missing Three-Quarter
  • 1904 - The Adventure of the Abbey Grange
• 1917 - His Last Bow (Short Story Collection)
  
  • 1904 - The Adventure of the Second Stain
  • 1908 - The Adventure of Wisteria Lodge
  • 1910 - The Adventure of the Devil's Foot
  • 1911 - The Disappearance of Lady Frances Carfax
  • 1911 - The Adventure of the Red Circle
  • 1912 - The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans
  • 1913 - The Adventure of the Dying Detective
  • 1917 - His Last Bow
• 1915 - The Valley of Fear (Novel)
• 1924 - How Watson Learned The Trick (Short Parody, Apocrypha) *
• 1927 - The Case-Book of Sherlock Holmes (Short Story Collection)
  
  • 1921 - The Adventure of the Mazarin Stone
  • 1922 - The Problem of Thor Bridge
  • 1923 - The Adventure of the Creeping Man
  • 1924 - The Adventure of the Sussex Vampire
  • 1924 - The Adventure of the Three Garridebs
  • 1924 - The Adventure of the Illustrious Client
  • 1926 - The Adventure of the Three Gables
  • 1926 - The Adventure of the Blanched Soldier
  • 1926 - The Adventure of the Lion's Mane
  • 1926 - The Adventure of the Retired Colourman
  • 1927 - The Adventure of the Veiled Lodger
  • 1927 - The Adventure of Shoscombe Old Place

It's not formulaic because they do more than 3 episodes year. It formulaic because they have a formula that they follow for every episode and they only rarely deviate from it.

Edited by Rory Abel, 17 January 2012 - 11:13 PM.

[Patrick A]

House is a consulting physician in the same way that Holmes is a consulting detective. When they show first started he was much more deductive than he is currently. Neither of them are big on actually interacting with their clients.

It's gotten away from the similarities recently, but the occasional point still crops up. House lives at 221B, for example. He plays the piano when he is depressed as opposed to the violin. They made a much bigger deal out of the drug use on House than the books ever did.

[Eduardo]

Isn't American modern Holmes - House?

Cheers for that list Eduardo, I've been meaning to go through the entire collection as I've only read about a third of those.

Glad it serves, I am currently doing a reread of the books. I think I may purchase The House of Silk to see how it is.

[David Meadows]

I kind of think the opposite, that other than some superficial surface details they're almost identical characters.

Doesn't that hold true of every brilliant TV detective? How deep do the superficial differences have to be before it's not Sherlock Holmes?

[Ogul]

Doesn't that hold true of every brilliant TV detective? How deep do the superficial differences have to be before it's not Sherlock Holmes?

I just feel that when I was watching Sherlock, I get the distinct impression that it's a rip-off of House. I mean, I get that the reality is the inverse, of course, but the tonal similarities in the characters' personalities and relationships and mannerisms are very distinct. I also get a bit of similarity with The Mentalist. There's a bit of similarity in most cop procedural, sure, especially in the "eccentric genius and sidekick" varieties, but House is definitely the closest.

[Patrick A]

Glad it serves, I am currently doing a reread of the books. I think I may purchase The House of Silk to see how it is.

House of Silk was enjoyable. Not great, but good.

[John Mosby]

I just feel that when I was watching Sherlock, I get the distinct impression that it's a rip-off of House. I mean, I get that the reality is the inverse, of course, but the tonal similarities in the characters' personalities and relationships and mannerisms are very distinct. I also get a bit of similarity with The Mentalist. There's a bit of similarity in most cop procedural, sure, especially in the "eccentric genius and sidekick" varieties, but House is definitely the closest.

I don't see it as a rip-off of House. As you say, the makers of House OPENLY acknowledge that it's a direct riff on Sherlock Holmes - a genius with no social skills, an 'assistant' with a six-letter surname that starts and ends with W- - - - N, with a barely veiled disdain for the clumsy thinking of others and who solves mysteries simply by paying attention to the smallest detail to come up with a logical, if unlikely to the outsider, conclusion. OTHER detective shows tend to show leaps of logic and faith, but House is certainly Holmes with a Stethoscope.

While capable of snarks and put-downs, Cumberbatch's Sherlock doesn't actively go out of the way to annoy people as Hugh Laurie's character actively does (and something they've gone waaaaay overboard with in recent seasons) - Sherlock simply lacks the tact gene and can't understand why people can't keep up and so really doesn't care as long as they follow his lead.

[Ogul]

I don't see it as a rip-off of House. As you say, the makers of House OPENLY acknowledge that it's a direct riff on Sherlock Holmes

Yeah, no, I'm not accusing Sherlock of ripping off House, I'm just saying, that's the gut feeling I get when watching it during certain scenes, because the two are both so influenced by the archetypal characters Holmes and Watson. I do agree that House has developed certain other traits to himself, the more deliberate attempts to alienate himself from others, rather than incidental, but they clearly give a very similar performance.

[Christian U]

it's sorta important to remember that Moriarty's plan to make the public turn on Holmes (which I completely believe would happen) didn't have to hold up forever, just long enough for him to get to the end of it (his forcing Sherlock to kill himself in disgrace).

The public, yes. The police, no, that didn't make any sense whatsoever.