199 replies to this topic

[Christian U]

Bruce Wayne is pretty cardboard in the comics. He's managed to go for over 70 years with nothing much notable happening in his personal life, at least Clark Kent has a regular love interest.

Well, it always depends on the individual writers, doesn't it? Still, yeah, he usually is. The thing with Nolan's film is that Batman is also carboard - I felt like both were pretty much blanks in Dark Knight. The interesting characters in the film were The Joker and Dent. I suppose that is the curse of second Batman movies, that they're carried by the villains, but still... I love Batman as a character (mainly, admittedly, when he's played as slightly psychotic, but then again he's a millionaire dressing up as a bat to fight crime, so in a realistic setting, I don't see how you get away with that without some serious mental damage), but in the movies, he's seldomly been more than a cypher.

I expect the same of this movie - Catwoman and Gordon (and I expect Gordon-Levitt's character) and above all Bane will be the interesting characters, and Batman will just prance around hitting people.

[Steve Sensible]

...he's a millionaire dressing up as a bat to fight crime, so in a realistic setting, I don't see how you get away with that without some serious mental damage)

Same way Kick Ass dealt with it - because it's cool! Add the kind of resources Bruce Wayne has, and it's cool times ten.

For me, Nolan's Bruce Wayne is just as much a thrill-seeker as he is a man on a mission.

[steveuk]

Johnny's suggested that in the past but I've never seen it reflected in any scene in the movies. Bruce doesn't do anything Batman related with anything other than an air of grim determination and occasionally desperation. He likes the technology, but only as a means to an end. I think the happiest he's shown in the films is when the cell-phone tracking system is up and running!

"Bruce Wayne as thrillseeker", is a direction that a story could go in, but I don't think Nolan's gone that way.

<SNIP>

I expect the same of this movie - Catwoman and Gordon (and I expect Gordon-Levitt's character) and above all Bane will be the interesting characters, and Batman will just prance around hitting people.

Bruce will react, he'll be on the back foot trying to deal with what's thrown at him and at Gotham.

It's the curse of the action hero. Unless they're on a "quest" of some sort, a journey with stops along the way, they're mostly just trying to survive long enough to have a face off with the villain at the end.

[T Masters]

Johnny's suggested that in the past but I've never seen it reflected in any scene in the movies. Bruce doesn't do anything Batman related with anything other than an air of grim determination and occasionally desperation. He likes the technology, but only as a means to an end. I think the happiest he's shown in the films is when the cell-phone tracking system is up and running!

Actually the happiest he's shown in the films is when he's playing with Rachel as a child; the death of both his parents AND Rachel mark an endpoint to any sense of youthful exhuberance.

Bruce is a depressed man with high agency. Falconi's speech to Bruce in the first film, where he tells him he's the "Prince of Gotham" and doesn't understand real suffering is telling of this. The "Playboy" Bruce IS just a mask, there's nothing more to it. Batman is just a way to channel his depression, which Bruce has convinced himself is a need for vengeance. It's not vengeance, it's grief given agency. Anyone with that prolonged narrative of grief probably isn't mentally healthy; however, Bruce's grief and depression only retards one function of his emotion, the rest of his cognitive state is highly functional, if only to an extremely obscured sense of rationality.

Edited by T Masters, 25 December 2011 - 02:48 PM.

[steveuk]

Tim, I feel an urge to lie on a couch and talk about my mother...

[T Masters]

There's also the phallic symbolism in The Dark Knight ...

[steveuk]

Well, Bruce Wayne is a bit of a dick...

[Christian U]

Same way Kick Ass dealt with it - because it's cool! Add the kind of resources Bruce Wayne has, and it's cool times ten.

I'm sorry I have to tell you this, but in Kick-Ass, Dave is a bit of an idiot, and Big Daddy is crazy.

For me, Nolan's Bruce Wayne is just as much a thrill-seeker as he is a man on a mission.

He isn't played that way, though. Neither by Bale nor by the direction.

I wish more action heroes were played as thrillseekers. In MI:2, they started Ethan Hunt in that manner when he smiles after he's caught himself sliding down a rockface, a hair's breath from death. They didn't really develop that, though.

Edited by Christian U, 25 December 2011 - 09:40 PM.

[Steve Sensible]

I'm sorry I have to tell you this, but in Kick-Ass, Dave is a bit of an idiot, and Big Daddy is crazy.

That doesn't mean it's not a cool, potentially exhilerating thing to do.

He isn't played that way, though. Neither by Bale nor by the direction.

I think there are elements of that. From his joking around with Alfred in Dark Knight, to his interactions with Lucius ("does it come in black?"), there is a small, but very definite part of Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne that is getting a kick out being Batman.

[steveuk]

<SNIP>

I wish more action heroes were played as thrillseekers. In MI:2, they started Ethan Hunt in that manner when he smiles after he's caught himself sliding down a rockface, a hair's breath from death. They didn't really develop that, though.

That's because it's selfish.

Heroes are heroic because they do things for others. If someone saves the world, not for the world but for the adrenaline rush, then they are less admirable.

That doesn't mean it's not a cool, potentially exhilerating thing to do.



I think there are elements of that. From his joking around with Alfred in Dark Knight, to his interactions with Lucius ("does it come in black?"), there is a small, but very definite part of Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne that is getting a kick out being Batman.

I think the "does it come in black?" line is meant to be part of Bruce's attempts to get his bat-gear without telling Lucius what he wants it for. It's the same as telling him he wants the suit for spellunking or the memory fabric for base-jumping.

Bruce does make some small jokes, but if he didn't he'd be really boring. Even more boring than Christian thinks he is!

I still think the only satisfaction Bruce gets is by stopping, or punishing, a crime of some sort. I think Tim can probably explain it better than I can though.

[Steve Sensible]

I still think the only satisfaction Bruce gets is by stopping, or punishing, a crime of some sort. I think Tim can probably explain it better than I can though.

To me, anyone who sets the Batmobile to "loiter", then "intimidate" in the way it was used in Dark Knight is somebody who's having a little fun on the job.

And that's an interpretation that's just as valid as Dr. Freud's because Bruce Wayne is not actually a real person.

[Christian U]

That's because it's selfish.

Heroes are heroic because they do things for others. If someone saves the world, not for the world but for the adrenaline rush, then they are less admirable.

Yeah, that's probably pretty much the reason. But I'd like to see that angle explored, see someone who loves his job because he's really good at it kick ass. Bond used to be like that, come to think of it.

[steveuk]

Yeah, that's probably pretty much the reason. But I'd like to see that angle explored, see someone who loves his job because he's really good at it kick ass. Bond used to be like that, come to think of it.

Breaking that down is part of what Bond goes through in 'Casino Royale'. He doesn't take life, or death, very seriously at the beginning of the film.

[Christian U]

Yeah, and that was definitely part of what I found appealing about Casino Royale - in the first half of the film, Bond is like a spy wunderkind, working on instinct and hitting the right notes automatically, and enjoying it all.

Connery's and Moore's Bonds both were like that, too, though. You could see they enjoyed being Bond - the danger, the women, even killing people. They turned Bond more serious with Dalton, and more so with Brosnan.

[steveuk]

The films became more serious, hence Bond has to confront the consequences of his actions, and those of others.

If you want to see a very serious film about a thrill-seeker then 'Hurt Locker' is probably worth a look. I'm one of four people on the planet that don't like it, but the central character fits the bill.

[Christian U]

Another reason to finally watch that one then. And yeah, I suppose it's a matter of not just Bond, but action flicks in general becoming more serious.

Come to think of it, the latest non-serious action movie that'd fit the bill would be Knight and Day. Cruise's manic exuberance was great there, I thought.

[T Masters]

I think the character work Bale, Nolan and Goyer do in the first film set up Bruce's motives pretty obviously.

Any sense of fun Bruce might be having as Batman is overshadowed by the seriousness of the mission he sets himself.

There's a reason that the main villains from BOTH films comment on Bruce's seriousness (Scarecrow mocks Batman's serious nature when he first encounters him, and there's Joker's famous line: "Why so Serious?").

Batman's a serious guy. Probably the most "serious" franchise hero in modern cinema.

Edited by T Masters, 26 December 2011 - 02:44 PM.

[Christian U]

I never see Bourne cracking a joke, mind you.

[T Masters]

Yeah but he's trying to escape: the end of the first film/opening of the second has him secluded and in love.

Bourne is aware of peace and freedom, it's a goal he's always hoping to achieve.

For Bruce, there's an awareness that there is no escape, just dogged, numbing persistence. There's not any chance of peace or freedom for Bruce (that we're currently made aware of). Bruce's vigilante choice is all-consuming - made especially clear by the last scene of The Dark Knight. That's one of the reasons we like him as a hero - he's a dark martyr.

Edited by T Masters, 26 December 2011 - 02:53 PM.

[Christian U]

That's one of the reasons we like him as a hero - he's a dark martyr.

Absolutely, yeah.