201 replies to this topic

[David Chapman]

Fox are developing a Punisher TV series:

Let's be accurate here. Fox have developed a generic cop-doubles-as-vigilante show, and bolted the names "Frank Castle" and "Punisher" onto the lead character.

[steveuk]

I can see how the business and executive side of Disney could be going crazy right now.

So can I, but I don't know for sure if this is as unusual as The New Yorker wants it to be.

The post production on many other big films (and quite a few smaller ones) I could name was no bed of roses either. I would go so far as to say that a smooth journey through post is the exception, not the rule.

Let's be accurate here. Fox have developed a generic cop-doubles-as-vigilante show, and bolted the names "Frank Castle" and "Punisher" onto the lead character.

Or, Fox has reworked the concept of The Punisher to make it into something that might actually find an audience. Which has not been Frank's forte in the past.

[T Masters]

Let's be accurate here. Fox have developed a generic cop-doubles-as-vigilante show, and bolted the names "Frank Castle" and "Punisher" onto the lead character.

I think it's more likely FOX saw the success of Dexter and are trying to shoehorn this existing property into that mould.

I don't think this will be Law and Order meets Batman, but maybe.

[craggy]

so Fox would rather spend normal money on a short-lived show than a bit more than average money on a decent Daredevil show that could run for seasons?

Who am I kidding, a good Daredevil show would get cancelled on Fox after 5 episodes.

[Dave Wallace]

Stop reminding me about that Daredevil show dream. It'd be great, but it won't happen.

[Stephen G]

I honestly have to wonder why the folks, at FOX, think sometimes? All these potentially fantastic shows as possibilities, and they go for the character with two decent to mediocre movies, and really wouldn't translate will to anything other than on Showtime, HBO, or FX.

If FOX wants to do police meeting Batman...craggy has is right - Daredevil is absolutely the way to go. And you get the Law & Order crowd if the lawyer end of the character has a prominent role. I mean...it just boggles my mind at exec idiocy sometimes.

[Johnny Henning]

Punisher? I think it's safe to say he has had three bad, bad movies.

Bad


Badder


Baddest

[Stephen G]

HAHA - I wasn't even counting that one from the 80's (early 90's?).

You definitely have them in the right order, though - though the Thomas Jane one wasn't as bad as I've seen some make it out to be. I just didn't understand how he wasn't in a full body cast mid-way into the movie .

[Johnny Henning]

Sure, Ennis made the character work as a gritty street level assassin/vigilante, but the Punisher really only works in a superhero universe.

What the Lundgren Punisher got wrong was trying to make him a straight action hero. They went the complete opposite direction of costumed vigilante to the extent of not even giving him the skullface T-shirt.

The Thomas Jayne Punisher seemed to be going for the extremely gritty style implied by Tim Bradstreet's Punisher covers, but really they got everything wrong. In fact, this Punisher movie had more in common with the Raimi Spider-Man films and the abysmal Daredevil movie (no, the Director's Cut does NOT make it any less CRAPPY! ). However, everything about the movie doesn't work.

War Zone was caught between the two approaches and didn't add anything to either.

However, the last two did flirt with the idea of sorta making this a MARVEL version of THE DARK KNIGHT.

Here's what I think they need to do with Punisher. First, as mentioned, simply set it in a world with superheroes and supervillains. After all, I believe Punisher first appeared in Spider-Man and he was going after the webslinger because everyone thought Spider-Man had killed Gwen Stacy's dad or something. The Punisher is an anti-superhero.

Set Punisher in a world where he's not just going after disfigured Dick Tracy villains, but against a menagerie of monstrous supervillainous criminals and ganglords (and maybe a corrupt superhero) who could tear him apart with their bare hands (or talons). That way he becomes the underdog in the story and the more monstrous they are, the less inhuman he seems by comparison, but you still keep the "battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you" theme at the heart of the character.

The Punisher's ultimate villain should be Ares, you know? War (actual combat and the war on drugs) is what's ruined his life and driven him to be what he is.

To be fair though, this is only an approach you could take now that superhero genre movies dominate the box office. I doubt anyone would greenlight a movie about a regular vigilante who kills supervillains back when the other movies came out.

[Christian U]

I honestly have to wonder why the folks, at FOX, think sometimes? All these potentially fantastic shows as possibilities, and they go for the character with two decent to mediocre movies, and really wouldn't translate will to anything other than on Showtime, HBO, or FX.

If FOX wants to do police meeting Batman...craggy has is right - Daredevil is absolutely the way to go. And you get the Law & Order crowd if the lawyer end of the character has a prominent role. I mean...it just boggles my mind at exec idiocy sometimes.

I suppose it's got to do with the Punisher not wearing spandex. Superhero costumes are hard to get right on TV.

[Steve Sensible]

I suppose it's got to do with the Punisher not wearing spandex. Superhero costumes are hard to get right on TV.

Indeed. Anything that requires SFX is beyond the scope of most TV shows - particularly nowadays. It's why you end up with horrible soap-operas-with-the-occasional-bad-FX like Smallville.

[Trevor Robertson]

Sure, Ennis made the character work as a gritty street level assassin/vigilante, but the Punisher really only works in a superhero universe.

What the Lundgren Punisher got wrong was trying to make him a straight action hero. They went the complete opposite direction of costumed vigilante to the extent of not even giving him the skullface T-shirt.

The Thomas Jayne Punisher seemed to be going for the extremely gritty style implied by Tim Bradstreet's Punisher covers, but really they got everything wrong. In fact, this Punisher movie had more in common with the Raimi Spider-Man films and the abysmal Daredevil movie (no, the Director's Cut does NOT make it any less CRAPPY! ). However, everything about the movie doesn't work.

War Zone was caught between the two approaches and didn't add anything to either.

However, the last two did flirt with the idea of sorta making this a MARVEL version of THE DARK KNIGHT.

Here's what I think they need to do with Punisher. First, as mentioned, simply set it in a world with superheroes and supervillains. After all, I believe Punisher first appeared in Spider-Man and he was going after the webslinger because everyone thought Spider-Man had killed Gwen Stacy's dad or something. The Punisher is an anti-superhero.

Set Punisher in a world where he's not just going after disfigured Dick Tracy villains, but against a menagerie of monstrous supervillainous criminals and ganglords (and maybe a corrupt superhero) who could tear him apart with their bare hands (or talons). That way he becomes the underdog in the story and the more monstrous they are, the less inhuman he seems by comparison, but you still keep the "battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you" theme at the heart of the character.

The Punisher's ultimate villain should be Ares, you know? War (actual combat and the war on drugs) is what's ruined his life and driven him to be what he is.

To be fair though, this is only an approach you could take now that superhero genre movies dominate the box office. I doubt anyone would greenlight a movie about a regular vigilante who kills supervillains back when the other movies came out.

Great post, and I like your idea, but I'm curious why you think an Ennis/MAX-style approach to the character (Where he essentially exists in a non-superhero bubble) wouldn't work?

[Rory Abel]

Sure, Ennis made the character work as a gritty street level assassin/vigilante, but the Punisher really only works in a superhero universe.

What the Lundgren Punisher got wrong was trying to make him a straight action hero. They went the complete opposite direction of costumed vigilante to the extent of not even giving him the skullface T-shirt.

The Thomas Jayne Punisher seemed to be going for the extremely gritty style implied by Tim Bradstreet's Punisher covers, but really they got everything wrong. In fact, this Punisher movie had more in common with the Raimi Spider-Man films and the abysmal Daredevil movie (no, the Director's Cut does NOT make it any less CRAPPY! ). However, everything about the movie doesn't work.

War Zone was caught between the two approaches and didn't add anything to either.

However, the last two did flirt with the idea of sorta making this a MARVEL version of THE DARK KNIGHT.

Here's what I think they need to do with Punisher. First, as mentioned, simply set it in a world with superheroes and supervillains. After all, I believe Punisher first appeared in Spider-Man and he was going after the webslinger because everyone thought Spider-Man had killed Gwen Stacy's dad or something. The Punisher is an anti-superhero.

Set Punisher in a world where he's not just going after disfigured Dick Tracy villains, but against a menagerie of monstrous supervillainous criminals and ganglords (and maybe a corrupt superhero) who could tear him apart with their bare hands (or talons). That way he becomes the underdog in the story and the more monstrous they are, the less inhuman he seems by comparison, but you still keep the "battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you" theme at the heart of the character.

The Punisher's ultimate villain should be Ares, you know? War (actual combat and the war on drugs) is what's ruined his life and driven him to be what he is.

To be fair though, this is only an approach you could take now that superhero genre movies dominate the box office. I doubt anyone would greenlight a movie about a regular vigilante who kills supervillains back when the other movies came out.

Got to say I completely disagree with this. The punisher has always essentially been The Executioner translated to comics. His opponents have primary been mobsters and criminals with only the occasional costumed character mixed in. The one time he had a comic that dealt with him fighting supervillains exclusively it failed miserably. The films failed for a number of reasons but going to grim realistic route wasn't one of them. The two most recent film tonally were all over the place, serious one minute slapstick and over the top the next. Deathwish is certainly the most successful punisher movie made so far.

[Johnny Henning]

Great post, and I like your idea, but I'm curious why you think an Ennis/MAX-style approach to the character (Where he essentially exists in a non-superhero bubble) wouldn't work?

People like to point to the Punisher MAX series as the most successful version of the character, but really The Punisher has been far more successful appearing in superhero comics like Daredevil, Spider-Man and Ultimate Avengers. Rick Remender and Jerome Opena's recent version of the character set deep in the Marvel Universe didn't last long, but it was very good and got them the Uncanny X-Force gig.

Could Punisher work as a straight crime film? Maybe, but there is nothing about that concept that distinguishes his story from any other action hero out there. I don't think we are going to see anything new or special with a totally crime genre Punisher. Throw him in a setting where superhuman crooks are overpowering the police and terrorizing the populace, where superheroes and costumed crimefighters are just as scary to people, and I think this opens up a lot of interesting possibilities for the character. Compared to "the freaks," it makes the very human and mortal Castle something of a darkly murderous hero to the people living in fear. He becomes a monster killer in a sense, and he can count on the assistance of the public in his personal campaign against the powers terrorizing the city.

Also, it's not something we've seen yet. It's distinct in that sense and that's what I look for as a genre develops like superheroes, zombies or alien invasion films.

[Rory Abel]

People like to point to the Punisher MAX series as the most successful version of the character, but really The Punisher has been far more successful appearing in superhero comics like Daredevil, Spider-Man and Ultimate Avengers. Rick Remender and Jerome Opena's recent version of the character set deep in the Marvel Universe didn't last long, but it was very good and got them the Uncanny X-Force gig.

Could Punisher work as a straight crime film? Maybe, but there is nothing about that concept that distinguishes his story from any other action hero out there. I don't think we are going to see anything new or special with a totally crime genre Punisher. Throw him in a setting where superhuman crooks are overpowering the police and terrorizing the populace, where superheroes and costumed crimefighters are just as scary to people, and I think this opens up a lot of interesting possibilities for the character. Compared to "the freaks," it makes the very human and mortal Castle something of a darkly murderous hero to the people living in fear. He becomes a monster killer in a sense, and he can count on the assistance of the public in his personal campaign against the powers terrorizing the city.

Also, it's not something we've seen yet. It's distinct in that sense and that's what I look for as a genre develops like superheroes, zombies or alien invasion films.

What are you talking about? Punishers most popular series was his original one which ran for 8the years. While it occasionally featured costumed heroes and villians his primary opponents were jigsaw, bushwacker and criminal organizations like the mafia and yakuza. Kingpin showed up more often than bullseye or doctor doom. Punisher has always needed to be able to kill his opponent which eliminated most supervillains from showing up regularly. When he did team up with a superheroes it was almost always to fight normal criminals so that they could be shocked and horrified when he killed them.

[Christian U]

I don't think he's indistinguishable from any other action hero, either, especially in the more current versions. I think it's quite fascinating to have a hero character who is so very obviously bonkers, a psychopath who kills bad guys because he doesn't know what else to do. With both Ennis and now the new MAX series, they've turned the story around a bit - he doesn't become a ruthless killer because his family was murdered, but he's always been a monster and the deaths of his family only gives him the excuse to let the beast out. I think that actually makes him quite an interesting character, the ultimate bad guy whose only heroic trait is that the people he kills are even worse than him. In that way, I suppose he actually is a bit like Dexter, but what I like about the Punisher is that he's such a completely ruined husk of a man.

I don't know, I think there's plenty of potential there.

[Johnny Henning]

What are you talking about? Punishers most popular series was his original one which ran for 8the years. While it occasionally featured costumed heroes and villians his primary opponents were jigsaw, bushwacker and criminal organizations like the mafia and yakuza. Kingpin showed up more often than bullseye or doctor doom. Punisher has always needed to be able to kill his opponent which eliminated most supervillains from showing up regularly. When he did team up with a superheroes it was almost always to fight normal criminals so that they could be shocked and horrified when he killed them.

That's a good point. I generally never got into the original Punisher series, but it was very popular. However, as you mention, it's most popular arcs were when he teamed up with superheroes like Wolverine who admittedly pumped the sales of any book he guest starred in. And, of course, the series would never have happened had he not first appeared in the superhero title Daredevil back when the Punisher had become something of joke before Frank Miller took him on (along with another joke of a Spider-Man villain, The Kingpin). And he's still appeared in superhero comics since then.

Still, we've got three movies that try to make the Punisher a straightforward, bad-ass street vigilante, and all three suck. Also, the utterly sadistic and damaged Punisher who's just killing criminals because it's all he knows what else to do - that feels more like a DEATH WISH movie - I don't think that will do any better in the cinema unless you are going for a less mainstream audience. Of course, it also describes MAN ON FIRE which came out the same year as the second PUNISHER movie. It was a lot more successful than PUNISHER, but it still wasn't a massive hit at the US Box Office.

Now, I'm not saying throw the guy up against extreme super-humans like The Red Skull, Dr Doom or The Silver Surfer. However, mix in guys on the level of Man Mountain Marko with exceptional but human killers on the level of Bullseye, and make it clear that in this world there is a certain level of superhuman powers mixed with skills that the authorities just cannot match. Throw in people like the Purple Man and thieves who can teleport or hitmen who can walk through walls and characters like the Jackal who see these streets as their personal human experimentation laboratories. Even in the 80's and 90's, it wasn't like the villains he fought were entirely realistic anyway.

I mean, you mentioned Bushwacker, right? The guy's got a bionic gun for his right arm. Punisher, at his most popular, has never been entirely set in the straightforward crime genre.

This was still the Image Era of comics.

[Christian U]

Also, the utterly sadistic and damaged Punisher who's just killing criminals because it's all he knows what else to do - that feels more like a DEATH WISH movie - I don't think that will do any better in the cinema unless you are going for a less mainstream audience.

Well, yeah, I think that's sort of the level the Punisher belongs at. It's never going to be a blockbuster franchise like Iron Man; the book has also always been outside of the mainstream (of Marvel comics).


My problem with your approach, Jonny, is basically that I think it can only work if things were like they're in the comics - that superheroes are the mainstream, with hardly anything outside of it, so books like the Punisher bringing a different angle to that become interesting. But we're not there yet, there's a lot of superhero flicks right now, but it's not exactly dominating the cineastic landscape, and I don't think that'll ever happen.

Edited by Christian U, 23 October 2011 - 03:36 PM.

[Johnny Henning]

It doesn't have to dominate the entire action cinema. I think we are there. I think we were there by the time X-men 3 came out. People can easily accept a fictional world where a lot of people have a level of superhuman abilities. They've seen it plenty of times in movies and on television (soon they might see it there again with POWERS). I mean, X-Men Origins: Wolverine wasn't a great movie, but it still attracted a major mainstream audience and that is essentially the kind of movie I think Punisher should be if Marvel ever wants to make a hit with the character.

Or stick him in a black ops Avengers team movie spinning off of The Avengers like Millar did in the Ultimate Universe. It may be that The Punisher can never really hold his own as the lead of a movie.

However, I think it is clear that, sadly, he hasn't attracted much success on screen as a straightforward crime action hero. Primarily because he is at heart a costumed crimefighter with a hard edge.

[steveuk]

I just realized (slow off the mark) that the proposed 'Punisher' series is actually reworking the idea behind 'Dexter'; the double life of legal crime-fighter by day and cold-blooded executioner by night.

So it's a good, tested and proven approach.

Now they just have to do it without f*cking it up.