192 replies to this topic

[Andrew]

I'll chime in with Returns being my favourite of the earlier films, and Begins. Probably on par with Dark Knight. Walken kills in it. So does Batman though - literally, which is bad and out of character.

[Chris D]

I'll chime in with Returns being my favourite of the earlier films, and Begins. Probably on par with Dark Knight. Walken kills in it. So does Batman though - literally, which is bad and out of character.

Batman is a killing machine in those Burton movies. Didn't he throw some henchman down that crazy high bell tower at the end of the first Batman movie?

[steveuk]

Batman is a killing machine in those Burton movies. Didn't he throw some henchman down that crazy high bell tower at the end of the first Batman movie?

Amongst other things, yes. He sets fire to another one in Returns too.

Movie action is tough to do without casualties. Watching the Police Cars vs. Tumbler chase in 'Batman Begins', you'd have to subscribe to an 'A-Team' version of physics and biology to believe that no cops either ended up in a wheelchair, or just plain died.

[Stephen G]

I had totally forgotten about Batman killing anyone, in the previous movies. Wow.

My plans for Thursday through Saturday may have expanded to both Batman Returns, and, oddly, Batman & Robin. I'm in the mood for a great laugh.

I may round it out with the Nolan moves too. To two on Thurs, two on Fr? Hmmm - this sounds like the weekend of The Batman.

[Arjan Dirkse]

Amongst other things, yes. He sets fire to another one in Returns too.

Movie action is tough to do without casualties. Watching the Police Cars vs. Tumbler chase in 'Batman Begins', you'd have to subscribe to an 'A-Team' version of physics and biology to believe that no cops either ended up in a wheelchair, or just plain died.

Yeah. Also in Ras al Ghuls clubhouse in the beginning of begins. I think that many of those ninja guys must have died when batman escaped and he blew the whole place up. And I'm pretty sure it must have killed that prisoner he didn't want to kill as well. That always struck me as rather silly.

"I am not an executioner - so I WILL KILL YOU ALL!!"

[Chris D]

"I am not an executioner - so I WILL KILL YOU ALL!!"

Yeah, Begins definitely has some very weird moments like that. I never liked the whole "I'm not going to kill you, but that doesn't mean I have to save you." thing at the end of the movie. It's the same thing, Batman...it's the same thing.

[David Chapman]

"I am not an executioner - so I WILL KILL YOU ALL!!"

There's a bit of a difference between killing some guy in cold blood to prove a point and disposing of a collection of professional killers who think they decide who lives and dies.

[Arjan Dirkse]

There's a bit of a difference between killing some guy in cold blood to prove a point and disposing of a collection of professional killers who think they decide who lives and dies.

Not really. The ninja may be killers, but so was the prisoner.

And how did the prisoner he was supposed to kill escape? Because it's likely he was killed in the fire as well. Which is super ironic. Bruce saves his life, then he lets him die in the fire.

[steveuk]

I don't mind that Bruce's journey to find himself is confusing, but it should be confusing for him, rather than us.

An interesting, alternative sort of an ending, Clint Eastwood's 'In the Line of Fire';

Spoiler

At the climax of the film Eastwood's character offers to save the life of John Malkovich's crazy assassin despite admitting that he doesn't really want to.

That's more Batman than the end of 'Batman Begins'.

[Ryan Landau]

Yeah, I would've bought that moment a lot more easily if Bruce had offered to save Ra's only to be rebuked. I just chalk it up to Nolan and Goyer trying a little too hard to cap off the climax of the movie with a "badass" moment. They were far more successful on The Dark Knight.

[Stephen G]

Yeah, Begins definitely has some very weird moments like that. I never liked the whole "I'm not going to kill you, but that doesn't mean I have to save you." thing at the end of the movie. It's the same thing, Batman...it's the same thing.

I always had a huge problem with that too. In fact - I remember going to see the movie a 2nd time, almost exclusively because I wanted to watch the ending sequence again - this line included.

I know I didn't rant about it here (it may have been over at AICN - harkening back SOME time now) - but I ranted about my displeasure with that line, and pointed to multiple issues (which I don't remember off hand at the moment) where Robin's were benched for not making the effort, or being unable to save someone. Relatedly, the horror Tim Drake had when Azrael, as Batman at that time, let the guy die, and made no attempt to save him - acting as one of the catalysis' for Bruce to come back sooner, rather than later.

Jeeze - I had forgotten about all this, til' I read your post, Chris.

[David Chapman]

Not really. The ninja may be killers, but so was the prisoner.

Was he? You only have Liam Neeson's say-so on that one. And let us not forget that after Bruce refused to kill the prisoner and join the League of Ninja Vigilante Terrorists, it's pretty unlikely that they would have let him leave alive.

[Arjan Dirkse]

Was he? You only have Liam Neeson's say-so on that one. And let us not forget that after Bruce refused to kill the prisoner and join the League of Ninja Vigilante Terrorists, it's pretty unlikely that they would have let him leave alive.

Yeah those are good points. Still that whole sequence irks me. It still seems unlikely to me that that prisoner escaped the fire.

I think it would have been far better if they had written a sequence where he simply left that place sneakily without blowing it up, but it wouldn't have been so spectacular.

[Dave Wallace]

I rewatched both of the Burton and both of the Schumacher movies recently (I just bought the Blu-Ray set), and I actually think they all hold up better than I would have expected.

Burton's movies are arguably more Burton movies than they are Batman movies, but some of the production design is stunning, and without the first film I wonder whether superhero films would ever have been taken seriously. Yes, Nolan's Batman universe is still a world away from Michael Keaton and Jack Nicholson, but they definitely paved the way to an extent.

Schumacher's movies do their best to unpave that way, of course - although Batman Forever plays it straighter than I remember - but they're both so gloriously colourful and silly that I can't really dislike them. Batman & Robin in particular is full of standout moments that might horrify grim-and-gritty Batman purists, but can't help but made me smile at their sheer audacity.

[Andrew]

Batman is a killing machine in those Burton movies. Didn't he throw some henchman down that crazy high bell tower at the end of the first Batman movie?

Maybe... the henchman grabbed a curtain on the way down...?

Actually, I'm sure some innocent security guards or maybe even vagrants died when he blew up the chemical plant in the first film too Maybe an accountant was woking back late, trying to reconcile petty cash - did Bats even check?

But the one that stands out for me in Returns is when he plants a bomb on that fat guy's chest and chucks him down a manhole. He was one of Penguin's goons, but sill - ouch.

[steveuk]

Was he? You only have Liam Neeson's say-so on that one. And let us not forget that after Bruce refused to kill the prisoner and join the League of Ninja Vigilante Terrorists, it's pretty unlikely that they would have let him leave alive.

Yeah those are good points. Still that whole sequence irks me. It still seems unlikely to me that that prisoner escaped the fire.

I think it would have been far better if they had written a sequence where he simply left that place sneakily without blowing it up, but it wouldn't have been so spectacular.

Lets not get too wrapped up in this. There's no reason to suppose that Neeson's character was lying about the identity of the prisoner. It serves no plot purpose and he's never brought up again.

Nolan made a good film and one that I still enjoy but it's got flaws.

No-one's perfect.

[craggy]

You only have Liam Neeson's say-so on that one.

You doubt Liam "Qui-Gon Aslan Hannibal Who Trained Batman" Neeson's word?

[David Chapman]

Yeah those are good points. Still that whole sequence irks me. It still seems unlikely to me that that prisoner escaped the fire.

I think it would have been far better if they had written a sequence where he simply left that place sneakily without blowing it up, but it wouldn't have been so spectacular.

It would also have required a major reworking of the script. Ducard showing up in Gotham with the fake Ras al'Ghul really wouldn't work so well if Bruce didn't believe he'd killed Ras.

[Arjan Dirkse]

It would also have required a major reworking of the script. Ducard showing up in Gotham with the fake Ras al'Ghul really wouldn't work so well if Bruce didn't believe he'd killed Ras.

Well , nobody said writing a good movie is easy

[Steve Sensible]

6-minute Dark Knight prologue will play before IMAX screenings of M:I 4.