196 replies to this topic

[Ricardo_C]

730 pages into "A Storm of Swords"

Spoiler

Just finished reading the Red Wedding chapters. Seriously, is Martin's sole goal to show readers just how much good people can get trampled on by those more powerful? Because we get that in real life daily. I'm absolutely hooked, and can barely put the book down, but seriously, how much more can he hurt the Starks? Not having read "A Feast for Crows" yet, the answer is probably "plenty more, and there's three more books to go". Arya's prayer is going to be half an hour long by the time this book is over. I know Bran and Rickon are still alive, but I hope Robb's Last Will surfaces and Jon ends up as Lord of Winterfell eventually. I won't say "King in the North", because my running theory is that he is Lyanna and Rhaegar's child, making him Aerys' direct heir (since Robb's Will legitimizes him as a Stark). I'm betting he and Daenerys will end up married and ruling together. But then, that would be too nice of an ending for a series that seems to thrive on letting no good deed go unpunished.

-If you're not through with the book, don't read past this point-









I've had Joffrey's death spoiled thanks to Google. I searched for "Joffrey Baratheon" looking for pre-show illustrations, and the third hit was an article called "Who killed Joffrey Baratheon?" But after reading the Red Wedding, I can hardly wait to see him croak. I hope it's slow and painful

Edited by Ricardo_C, 23 June 2011 - 02:05 PM.

[David Chapman]

Ricardo, if you want to avoid spoilers, search using Google Images.

[Mike]

Ricardo, your original spoilered comment you made when you started Storm of Swords made me laugh, on the basis that if you thought that at the START of the book...

Croak. Heh heh.

I wouldn't search for anything Song of Ice and Fire related until you're done to be honest. The chances are almost anything you search for will end up producing spoilers.

[Martin Smith]

Yeah, I got spoiled about the death of Eddard when putting book 2 on my Amazon wishlist while partway thru book 1. The blurb was higher up the page than I expected.

And I'd stay away from Google Image Search as well. You might end up finding a picture of

Spoiler

Joffrey's death.

[Mike]

The back cover blurb for A Feast for Crows has an (indirect) spoiler for a fairly major plot twist of the previous book, in the UK edition at least.

[Mike]

730 pages into "A Storm of Swords"

Spoiler

Jon ends up as Lord of Winterfell eventually. I won't say "King in the North", because my running theory is that he is Lyanna and Rhaegar's child, making him Aerys' direct heir (since Robb's Will legitimizes him as a Stark). I'm betting he and Daenerys will end up married and ruling together. But then, that would be too nice of an ending for a series that seems to thrive on letting no good deed go unpunished.

I'm not sure that'd work though.

Storm of Swords spoilers:

Spoiler

Robb's Will legitimises Jon as the son of Eddard Stark. If Jon is NOT Ned's son, but is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then he's still a bastard, just a bastard Targaryen heir, not a bastard Stark heir. He can be heir to Winterfell, but not to the Iron Throne.

(Which doesn't preclude him sitting on it at some point)

A Feast for Crows, minor spoiler:

Spoiler

I'd forgotten Mya Stone was a bastard daughter of Robert. There's still a possibility that Robert's other bastards - mainly Gendry and Edric Storm - might have a role to play, though you do worry that it's most likely as royal blood for Melisandre to play with.

General questions, spoilers to the end of A Feast for Crows really:

Spoiler

What do you think Varys' game is? Loyal to the throne, or to the Targaryens? Is he working with Doran as well as Illario? Who brokered Arianne's betrothal to Viserys?

One of the things I like a lot about the story is the pacing of the larger threats. We've spent four books waiting for Winter, or for Dany to raid Westeros, and they've still not happened (well, winter falls at the end of A Feast for Crows, with the evacuation of the Eyrie and that lovely image of Jaime standing in the snow at Riverrun), but it doesn't feel hollow. I think a lot of people watching the TV series are expecting White Walkers and Dany to rage through the Seven Kingdoms imminently, and it's going to be years until that happens in any meaningful way on the TV series. I really hope they manage to complete the story on the telly.

Thinking about the pacing, something I hadn't previously appreciated as much as I think I should have is just how interspersed the chapters of the various books end up being. There's a chronological timeline of the books that someone did here, and some of the overlaps surprised me. The Dany chapters in particular are happening relatively far back - the first Dany chapter from Storm of Swords is about contemporaneous with Renly's death in Clash of Kings. Similarly, the last time we see Arya in Feast it's almost a full year after the last scene we see in Westeros in the same book (Jaime at Riverrun in the snow)

[Ricardo_C]

Ahh, I'd thought

Spoiler

"legitimizing" meant wiping someone's birth status clean, regardless of name.

Almost done with book three...

Spoiler

Tywin's death was supremely cathartic. They tried to humiliate Robb in death by defiling his corpse, and Grey Wind's, but only made him a more fearsome symbol of Northern rebellion, while the mighty Lord of Casterly Rock dies on the toilet, soiling himself. I was afraid that if he died, it would be in battle, sword in hand. I'm glad that much was denied him.

Edited by Ricardo_C, 24 June 2011 - 11:54 AM.

[Paul F]

Ahh, I'd thought

Spoiler

"legitimizing" meant wiping someone's birth status clean, regardless of name.

Spoiler

Yeah, I thought that what was what Stannis was offering Jon at the end of A Storm of Swords.

[Martin Smith]

spoilers to the end of A Feast for Crows really:

Spoiler

What do you think Varys' game is? Loyal to the throne, or to the Targaryens? Is he working with Doran as well as Illario? Who brokered Arianne's betrothal to Viserys?

I take what he said in the first book at a face value.

Spoiler

'The Realm'. I think Varys is the ultimately always looking for the most peaceful and least disruptive course of action. He goes along with plotting the assassination of Dany to preclude any invasion by the Dothraki. He tries to get Ned to back down to stop the Stark's rebellion. As far as I can recall most of his interactions with Tyrion were to moderate him (I could easily be forgetting something there). I really think Varys is the most loyal man in the kingdom because he's loyal to the kingdom.

Spoiler

Thinking about the pacing, something I hadn't previously appreciated as much as I think I should have is just how interspersed the chapters of the various books end up being. There's a chronological timeline of the books that someone did here, and some of the overlaps surprised me. The Dany chapters in particular are happening relatively far back - the first Dany chapter from Storm of Swords is about contemporaneous with Renly's death in Clash of Kings. Similarly, the last time we see Arya in Feast it's almost a full year after the last scene we see in Westeros in the same book (Jaime at Riverrun in the snow)

I hadn't even noticed that. Surely it'll be something they'll have to tinker with in the TV version to make it flow more smoothly?

[Mike]

Regarding Varys (mainly spoilers for the first book, but with some Feast ones thrown in):

Spoiler

Varys plotted with Ilario (they're the two men Arya sees in the crypts at King's Landing), and Jorah was warned in advance by Varys that there was an assassin coming. The question is whether Varys was plotting with Illario because that was the best way to keep on top of everything - or because he genuinely wanted a Targaryen back on the throne.

I suspect there will be a connection between Varys and Doran still to come, either explicitly or through an intermediary. Doran's long game was to place Viserys and Arianne atop the Iron Throne, and to bring down House Lannister in the process. His plan has just shifted bit now.

Regarding Jon in Storm of Swords:

Spoiler

The offer of legitimacy applies to Ned Stark's son though. If Jon is NOT Ned Stark's son, then I am not sure how it would apply.

[Martin Smith]

Regarding Varys (mainly spoilers for the first book, but with some Feast ones thrown in):

Spoiler

Varys plotted with Ilario (they're the two men Arya sees in the crypts at King's Landing), and Jorah was warned in advance by Varys that there was an assassin coming. The question is whether Varys was plotting with Illario because that was the best way to keep on top of everything - or because he genuinely wanted a Targaryen back on the throne.

I suspect there will be a connection between Varys and Doran still to come, either explicitly or through an intermediary. Doran's long game was to place Viserys and Arianne atop the Iron Throne, and to bring down House Lannister in the process. His plan has just shifted bit now.

Ah,

Spoiler

I wondered who it was talking in the crypts. I couldn't tell at all when reading the book (even the second time) and only recognised Varys in the TV version. Oo, yes that changes things.

Regarding Jon in Storm of Swords:

Spoiler

The offer of legitimacy applies to Ned Stark's son though. If Jon is NOT Ned Stark's son, then I am not sure how it would apply.

Surely

Spoiler

if he's the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar he could be legitimised as a Stark as Lyanna's heir? Which would give him claim to Winterfell as the only legitimate male heir, even if on a different branch (going under the belief that Bran and Rickon are dead).

[Mike]

Jon/SoS:

Spoiler

Yes, he COULD be, but that is not what Stannis is thinking he is offering to do, or what Robb thinks he has done.

And it still only gives him claim to Winterfell as a legitimate Stark heir. He'd still be a Targaryen bastard. Ricardo was working on the basis that his legitimisation makes him Aerys' direct heir - it's that bit I don't think applies.

[Martin Smith]

Jon/SoS:

Spoiler

Yes, he COULD be, but that is not what Stannis is thinking he is offering to do, or what Robb thinks he has done.

And it still only gives him claim to Winterfell as a legitimate Stark heir. He'd still be a Targaryen bastard. Ricardo was working on the basis that his legitimisation makes him Aerys' direct heir - it's that bit I don't think applies.

Spoiler

True, although in the face of the offer to be made a proper Stark, his parentage becomes almost irrelevant as the word of the king is law. But yeah, as a Targaryen I can only ever see him becoming Dany's consort rather than the legitimate heir to the throne.

[Mike]

Jon/SoS in reply to Martin:

Spoiler

How do you think Stannis would react if he were to discover Jon was a potential Targaryen claimant to the Iron Throne. I do not think it would involve laughter and bearhugs.

[Martin Smith]

Jon/SoS in reply to Martin:

Spoiler

How do you think Stannis would react if he were to discover Jon was a potential Targaryen claimant to the Iron Throne. I do not think it would involve laughter and bearhugs.

No, but

Spoiler

then I don't necessarily think he'd react angrily. Admittedly I can't remember what his feelings were about Dany (if any were given) but if he discovered Jon was a Targaryen bastard I don't think he'd immediately have him killed. He might try and use him as a source of royal blood for Melisandre of course. But I think he might see Jon the Targaryen as a way to get hold of Dany's dragons.

[Mike]

More random comments/questions, with spoilers up to the end of Feast:

Spoiler

The back story is fascinating, and I'm glad that other people have put in all the effort to draw together the references to past events which are probably going to be of some significance. Pulling together comments from all of the books, there is enough to suggest that the tragedy at Summerhall which several characters have referenced may have been a Targaryen attempt to rebirth a dragon from stone, during which at least one Targaryen king died, and it's possible Rhaegar was born.

It's interesting that technically Drogo was of royal blood; was it the combination of his blood, the fire and the presence of Dany that allowed her stone eggs to hatch?

And why are all the dragons stone anyway? There's an implication somewhere that it was the Maesters of the Citadel that removed them from the world.

The red comet didn't make an appearance in Dany's final scene in the TV series, did it?

Where's Rickon? We've not seen or heard of him since Winterfell was sacked, have we? That was at the end of Clash of Kings. Of all the Starks, it's ferocious little Rickon that I think will end up as Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North by the time the story is done - everyone else will have their own stories I think. Assuming they survive.

[Paul F]

More random comments/questions, with spoilers up to the end of Feast:

Spoiler

The red comet didn't make an appearance in Dany's final scene in the TV series, did it?

Where's Rickon? We've not seen or heard of him since Winterfell was sacked, have we? That was at the end of Clash of Kings. Of all the Starks, it's ferocious little Rickon that I think will end up as Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North by the time the story is done - everyone else will have their own stories I think. Assuming they survive.

Spoiler

No, no comet. Maybe in the opening scenes of S2?

Maester Luwin's dying request was for Osha to split Bran and Rickon up, so she took Rickon off somewhere. They haven't been seen since.

Just finishing up AFFC myself:

Spoiler

What's up with Arya going blind? Slightly annoyed we'll probably have to wait until The Winds of Winter to follow up on that.

[kieranbeech]

Well I've joined the reading venture and I'm reading the first book, just got to the part were Bran was shoved by Jamie Lannister, and eagerly reading on, I'm avoiding the spoilers put up early in the thread, at least until I start to make a dent in the second book, which hopefully I'll be on in a few days.

[Martin Smith]

Spoiler

No, no comet. Maybe in the opening scenes of S2?

Maester Luwin's dying request was for Osha to split Bran and Rickon up, so she took Rickon off somewhere. They haven't been seen since.

Just finishing up AFFC myself:

Spoiler

What's up with Arya going blind? Slightly annoyed we'll probably have to wait until The Winds of Winter to follow up on that.

Spoiler

I'm hoping Arya will be followed up at the back of Dance, as one of the 'bonus' chapters (ie the stuff Martin's added to compensate for the massive delays and split cast).
And the comet should have been present when the Night's Watch set off as well, I think. I really liked the comet, it was a great little linking piece between all the strands in Clash.

[Mike]

Just finishing up AFFC myself:

Spoiler

What's up with Arya going blind? Slightly annoyed we'll probably have to wait until The Winds of Winter to follow up on that.

Spoiler

The price she pays for not being able to suppress being Arya, or just the next stage of her training?



There are 'Arya' chapters in Dance, but there's at least the possibility that they will be fake Arya/Jayne Poole chapters instead of Arya Stark ones. Sansa's later chapters in Feast went under the 'Elayne Stone' name rather than her own.

If that chronology is right though, Arya's story is already told well in advance of everyone else in the story, so it'd take a while to catch back up to her.