196 replies to this topic

[Ricardo_C]

100 pages into "A Clash of Kings".

Spoiler

Tyrion Lannister

may be the greatest character in fantasy literature, ever.

[Mike]

Just a general comment, and not directed at you at all Ricardo obviously - given there are likely to be a lot of people reading the Song of Ice and Fire books over the next wee while (especially, I suspect, after the TV series comes to the end of its first season), a reminder to please make sure that if you do discuss them in this thread to make sure anything important is spoiler protected.

There's clearly a lot of plot between where the books currently are and where the TV series will end this year, and it really is a story where the surprises work best as just that.

[Ricardo_C]

My bad, Mike. I'm unable to edit the post anymore, though. Would you mind removing it?

Spoiler

Given the cliffhanger from last night's episode, even revealing Tyrion survives to see book/season 2 may be annoying to people

[Mike]

Oh, no, not at all (though yes, I hadn't even considered that just mentioning characters constitutes spoilers of a sort).

But I do think it's quite easy to make comments that give things away - I keep having to check myself in the TV thread from saying something that reveals something further down the line.

[Ricardo_C]

600 pages into "A Clash of Kings". I'm spoilerizing my comments because I don't want to be lynched:

Spoiler

Overall, I like it better than A Game of Thrones, which is saying a lot, but I'm finding Martin is in love with two conceits that really bring the book down when they happen:

The first is minor, but annoying all the same: The constant descriptions of food and clothing. I understand the intent: To make the world feel more real and alive, and that's all well and good, but not when they bring the narration to a screeching halt so that the narrator can go over every garment and undergarment a character is wearing, or when a character extends his/her lines well past normal human conversational conventions in order to go over how a dish was prepared. I used to lament the fact that Tolkien wasn't more detailed in his costume descriptions, but now I think he made the wiser choice.

The second is more egregious, in my opinion. I realize the series is a multi-generational epic, and that by the end of book seven, it may well come down to the adult Bran leading Winterfell into final battle, and so even these seemingly minor characters need to be set up properly, but there seems to be an overabundance of filler that drags the story down a lot. Every Bran chapter feels like it was tossed in there to help the book break the 1000-page mark. I know that's not the case, and that it's all building towards something, but I've had enough of Bran's cryptic dreams to last me till I'm done with the four current books. And I hate the contrived way in which Bran's dreams are being built up into something serious (oh hello, character-who-got-a-passing-mention-200-pages-ago-and-is-suddenly-Bran's-BFF-and-oh-hey-also-psychic). I don't need a chapter devoted to a dream foreshadowing Theon's betrayal, I'd rather have more chapters about Theon actually arriving at his choice. You know, character development.

I know this sounds like a negative appraisal of the novel, but I truly am enjoying it. I just don't wanna discuss the story proper for fear of being spoiled further (I already know a couple major revelations from book 3 thanks to careless googling).

Oh, and I've been biting my tongue in the TV thread, every time Jim tries to argue Joffrey's not truly evil. Just you wait, O'Hara :p

PS-- Melissandre actually GIVES BIRTH to the shades? That was just weird. HBO will have fun with it for sure.

PPS-- Rorge graphically threatening Arya with rape was gross and unnecessary. We knew he was a pervert from the start. Sometimes less is more.

Edited by Ricardo_C, 16 June 2011 - 03:33 PM.

[Mike]

Ricardo,I reread A Storm of Swords on the train this afternoon, and am sorely tempted to start a separate "Books" thread for A Song of Ice and Fire to get around the spoiler problem for the TV thread.

A Feast of Crows tomorrow, all ready for A Dance With Dragons in a few weeks.

[Ricardo_C]

Ricardo,I reread A Storm of Swords on the train this afternoon, and am sorely tempted to start a separate "Books" thread for A Song of Ice and Fire to get around the spoiler problem for the TV thread.

A Feast of Crows tomorrow, all ready for A Dance With Dragons in a few weeks.

That's a great idea, I know I at least will have dozens of questions before I start A Dance with Dragons.

800 pages in now...

Spoiler

So much for my theory of an adult Bran leading Winterfell in the end. Martin's a sadist of the highest caliber.

[Ricardo_C]

Finished A Clash of Kings, starting A Storm of Swords

Spoiler

The series should be retitled "Watch the World Shit and Stomp on the Starks, Over and Over". The payoff better be huge.

[Mike]

OK, a few posts split off from the general books thread.

This is for discussion of the GRR Martin NOVELS that make up the A Song of Ice and Fire series (Game of Thrones, Clash of Kings, Storm of Swords, A Feast for Crows and soon to be A Dance with Dragons)

Given I think there are going to be people reading at different stages, and some people who may wander in by accident from the TV series thread, I think it probably makes sense to spoiler ANY specific comments for any of the books - there are some major plot twists and turns in every one of the books, and knowing about them in advance if you don't want to would be irritating.

[Martin Smith]

When's Dance coming out?

[Patrick A]

July I believe.

I'm re-reading the books in anticipation of Dance. One thing I completely missed the first time:

Spoilers (Rheager Targaryan and Robert's Rebellion):

Spoiler

First time through I just took Robert's story at face value. Second time through I realized that Rhegar was probably a pretty awesome guy. Nobody but Robert ever has a bad word to say about him. Further, he didn't kidnap and rape Ned's sister, it was a totally consensual situation. Which basically means the whole war started because Robert's feelings were hurt.

Further spoilers from the above and my speculation on Jon Snow:

Spoiler

It's also really clear (to me) on a re-read that Jon SNow is Ned's nephew (by his sister and Rhegar) and not his kid. Like, it is so obvious I feel stupid for not noticing it the first time.

[Sabrina Peyton]

Just reread the whole series so far in the past few weeks.

Oh it was a slog.

Not a bad one but it just went on and on.

Is the next book the last one?

[Eduardo]

After the soon to be released one, two more, IIRC.

[Mark Peyton]

Yeah due to the non jump in time that GRRM had planned for book 4 we now have a 7 book series rather than a 6 book one.

[Mike]

Spoilers (Rheager Targaryan and Robert's Rebellion):

Spoiler

First time through I just took Robert's story at face value. Second time through I realized that Rhegar was probably a pretty awesome guy. Nobody but Robert ever has a bad word to say about him. Further, he didn't kidnap and rape Ned's sister, it was a totally consensual situation. Which basically means the whole war started because Robert's feelings were hurt.

Further spoilers from the above and my speculation on Jon Snow:

Spoiler

It's also really clear (to me) on a re-read that Jon SNow is Ned's nephew (by his sister and Rhegar) and not his kid. Like, it is so obvious I feel stupid for not noticing it the first time.

Spoilers for the whole shebang:

Spoiler

Yeah, though I'm starting to wonder if this isn't almost too obvious now, and there's a further misdirect coming. Rhaegar and Lyanna's story is the bit about the Rebellion that I think still has a lot to do with how the whole story will play out but - given we've already seen other examples of babies being swapped to protect those of royal blood, and a fake Arya - I wonder whether Rhaegar's infant son is as dead as we think he is.

Rhaegar does seem to have been one of the good Targaryens, and very clearly preoccupied with prophecy.

Until I reread I'd forgotten just how much of the events of the books - Jon Arryn's death, the orchestration of the Stark/Lannister feud, Joffrey's murder - were Littlefinger's orchestration. Of all of the characters he's the one playing the Game of Thrones the best, because no-one really appreciates just HOW much he's actually playing it.

I'd forgotten the Greyjoy boy had a horn that could control dragons as well.

[ADevenney]

Further spoilers from the above and my speculation on Jon Snow:

Spoiler

It's also really clear (to me) on a re-read that Jon SNow is Ned's nephew (by his sister and Rhegar) and not his kid. Like, it is so obvious I feel stupid for not noticing it the first time.

Saw someone mention this idea somewhere on the Internet (maybe here?) a few weeks back and that's exactly how I felt for not noticing it as well...utterly stupid. A big "Duh" moment for me...

[Martin Smith]

Yeah Patrick, I noticed the

Spoiler

Rhaegar-Lyanna-Jon possibility when I re-read everything just after Christmas and it certainly seems very plausible. There's too much about Ned's memories of Lyanna's death that smacks of her dying in childbirth rather than Rhaegar having killed her. The only doubt I have about all that now is that Rhaegar's barely been mentioned at all in the show, which suggests that he's peripheral enough to cut and thus not Jon's father. It's not like they've had time to mention him as much as the book does, given how much extra build-up they've shoved in about the Greyjoy's this year.
I wouldn't say the whole rebellion was about Robert's feelings being hurt though. It's still largely about Aerys being a crazy asshat.

Spoilers for the whole shebang:

Spoiler

Yeah, though I'm starting to wonder if this isn't almost too obvious now, and there's a further misdirect coming. Rhaegar and Lyanna's story is the bit about the Rebellion that I think still has a lot to do with how the whole story will play out but - given we've already seen other examples of babies being swapped to protect those of royal blood, and a fake Arya - I wonder whether Rhaegar's infant son is as dead as we think he is.

Rhaegar does seem to have been one of the good Targaryens, and very clearly preoccupied with prophecy.

Until I reread I'd forgotten just how much of the events of the books - Jon Arryn's death, the orchestration of the Stark/Lannister feud, Joffrey's murder - were Littlefinger's orchestration. Of all of the characters he's the one playing the Game of Thrones the best, because no-one really appreciates just HOW much he's actually playing it.

I'd forgotten the Greyjoy boy had a horn that could control dragons as well.

That's part of the trouble I had with Feast for Crows

Spoiler

it builds up so much happening for Dany - that maverick Maester going off to teach her, Euron aiming to capture her dragons and we don't see her at all. And, with Martin's initial plan for Dance, we wouldn't even catch up to that until book 6. So glad he's decided to have Dance catch up and carry on from Feast a bit.

[Jason Hendriks]

After the soon to be released one, two more, IIRC.

Yeah, seven books total. As of now, anyway...

1. A Game of Thrones (1996)
2. A Clash of Kings (1998)
3. A Storm of Swords (2000)
4. A Feast for Crows (2005)
5. A Dance with Dragons (2011 -- fingers crossed.)
Don't know if the titles could be considered spoilery, so just in case...

Spoiler

6. The Winds of Winter
7. A Dream of Spring

As this is a story that seems to get longer with the telling, we can hope that it doesn't keep growing. "A Dance with Dragons" was originally planned to be the fourth book (as of 2000), but got split into two books (A Feast For Crows and A Dance with Dragons). Martin originally planned for the "Song of Ice and Fire" saga to be a trilogy, but it expanded to four books when "A Game of Thrones" was longer than planned, and then it grew to six, which eventually became seven when "A Dance with Dragons" was split into two volumes.

God knows when he'll finish six and seven. We can hope the success of the HBO series lights are fire under his ass and he can get them done in short order.

[Mark Peyton]

Part of the reason for the delay was he rewrote books 4 and 5 because he went for a time jump and then realised how much he was having to do in flashback.

[Paul F]

Reread A Storm of Swords yesterday, and enjoyed it more than I expected to. I love how much happens in the back half of that book.

The only parts I didn't really care for were the Dany scenes. Hopefully bringing Tyrion into that story in A Dance With Dragons makes it more interesting.