196 replies to this topic

[Robert B]

Buddy movies work when both characters are around the same age. When one is half the age of the other is somehow become really sexualized.

"Whhaaaaat? No time for love, Dr. Jones!"

[Trevor Robertson]

Yeah, I can't think of any examples where a buddy-movie duo of differin

Buddy movies work when both characters are around the same age. When one is half the age of the other is somehow become really sexualized. There's no getting away from that with Batman and Robin.

Examples?

[Chris D]

Examples?

Yeah, I can't really think of any. I can think of way more buddy comedies (be it in TV or movies) with characters of the same age where they homoerotic stuff is pretty amped up for comedic purposes.

Still, I think you could do a cool Batman & Robin movie. Not saying it wouldn't be a bit of a challenge, but for me, at least, if I can accept a movie where a billionaire dresses up like a giant bat to scare criminals I think I could also buy into him training a teenager to fight crime as well.

[Jacowboy (Jonathan)]

I agree, look at Hesher (the movie with JGL), that's pretty much a buddy movie with a huge age difference, and it's a great movie... No sexualization at all.

[Jim Ohara]

Examples?

There's usually two templates for a buddy movie: the straight man and the fish out of water (Jackie Chan movies, Lethal Weapon, 48 Hours) or the best friends forever (Thelma and Louise, Sherlock, Shrek, Bill & Ted). It works if they're man-man, woman-woman or even man-woman (though that's when the sex things starts up (X Files, Moonlighting, Bones).

When you have a young man and an older man, that's nearly always a master & apprentice relationship (Star Wars, Back to the Future, Men in Black). The journey for the story is for the younger character to take over, as the older character dies at the end of the heroes tale. Except they're not going to kill Batman and make a Robin franchise. So you end up telling the story of an older man who just hangs around with a younger guy, not a fish out of water and not BFF's. It's an exceedingly rare type of story, exactly because it's weird. You get into Doctor Who territory - writers can't help but have the younger less experienced character discover feelings for the older wiser character. I think it says alot that Batman hasn't actually fought with a regular Robin for over 20 years (I can't think of any kid sidekick comic that's worked in the last couple of decades).

[Chris D]

When you have a young man and an older man, that's nearly always a master & apprentice relationship (Star Wars, Back to the Future, Men in Black). The journey for the story is for the younger character to take over, as the older character dies at the end of the heroes tale. Except they're not going to kill Batman and make a Robin franchise.

Except that Dick Grayson does have a very easy story arc to follow where he becomes his own hero in Nightwing, moving beyond the sidekick thing. Or you have Jason Todd who, at least briefly, became an adversary for Batman. I feel like both those characters have very clear character arcs that you could develop a potential trilogy from, Grayson's arc could even lead to a potential spin-off (which you say they wouldn't do, but if they make the character cool there's no reason you couldn't do a Nightwing movie...couldn't be worse than GL or Catwoman).

[Dave Wallace]

(I can't think of any kid sidekick comic that's worked in the last couple of decades).

[Jacowboy (Jonathan)]

Wow thinking about it for a second, that could actually work for a DKR sequel... Having Blake take up the mantle, and the son of Bruce & Selina become Robin...

[James Dodsworth]

Just got to seeing this today, and I enjoyed it. It's not as good as TDK, but it's still very good.

Helps that I saw it in a subtitled performance, definitely helped me enjoy Hardys performance more.

The wife and I had a bit of a disagreement over "robin" though. I took the inference that he was to take on the bat suit and kick ass, whilst the missus thought he was just going to be robin and assist Bruce.

Obviously I'm right, but Jen thinks the majority of people watching would go with her view. As a comic fan I'm probably too close to see what she means, but have to concede she has a point.

Not quite a spinning top, but fun to discuss all the same.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Jim Ohara]

Batman and Robin was a buddy comic much more than a sidekick comic. Not much different from Heroes for Hire, Guardians of the Galaxy or Blue & Gold. They're essentially two brothers with ages in the same ball park (Nightwing is about 28 I think, Damien is maybe 11 or 12). And it was written as the wise ass younger brother being watched over by the caring big brother. It's essentially Goonies with capes. Very different from a 40 year-old man hanging out with someone in their late teens.

[Johnny Henning]

Buddy movies generally work if the two leads are as dissimilar as possible. Nolte and Murphy in 48 HOURS. Gibson and Glover in LETHAL WEAPON. Wilder and Pryor in SILVER BULLET. Wayons and Willis in THE LAST BOY SCOUT.

Hmmm... I'm noticing a pattern here.

So, old guy and young kid could work - UP is a good example.

[Chris D]

Batman and Robin was a buddy comic much more than a sidekick comic. Not much different from Heroes for Hire, Guardians of the Galaxy or Blue & Gold. They're essentially two brothers with ages in the same ball park (Nightwing is about 28 I think, Damien is maybe 11 or 12). And it was written as the wise ass younger brother being watched over by the caring big brother. It's essentially Goonies with capes. Very different from a 40 year-old man hanging out with someone in their late teens.

And that dynamic would be impossible to implement in a Batman & Robin movie where you could have a young, dour-ish Bruce Wayne play the big brother to a more fun loving teenaged (could even make him in his late teens) Grayson? We could easily be talking about a 28 year old Batman and a 16 year old Robin. In which case I see very little difference in the two scenarios.

And if you're really worried about the relationship becoming sexualized, just give Grayson a love interest/crush in the movie. Let it be Barbara Gordon even. But I suppose this will just be an agree to disagree scenario yet again.

Edited by Chris D, 30 July 2012 - 08:31 PM.

[Jim Ohara]

Big brother and little brother? I guess. But it was creepy in the 60's and audiences have only gotten worse over the past 40 years. I guess with the right writer they could find a way to hit just the right tone, but in Nolan-verse I think they handled it how it would need to be done - the master and apprentice relationship. If the movie had ended with Blake arriving at the Batcave with Bruce waiting and Alfred serving them hot cocoa before they both went upstairs to bed it's have a really different tone.

[Johnny Henning]

What? Who in their right mind could ever see anything sexual in Batman and Robin's relationship in the first place?

[steveuk]

Just got to seeing this today, and I enjoyed it. It's not as good as TDK, but it's still very good.

Helps that I saw it in a subtitled performance, definitely helped me enjoy Hardys performance more.

The wife and I had a bit of a disagreement over "robin" though. I took the inference that he was to take on the bat suit and kick ass, whilst the missus thought he was just going to be robin and assist Bruce.

Obviously I'm right, but Jen thinks the majority of people watching would go with her view. As a comic fan I'm probably too close to see what she means, but have to concede she has a point.

Not quite a spinning top, but fun to discuss all the same.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I think he's going to be... something. Whether its actually 'Batman' is a big question. He's got some terrific cast off kit but he doesn't have the ongoing mega bucks, the R&D department or the absolute focus of Bruce Wayne.

He's going to be a one man A-Team, Gotham's Equalizer. Pretty cool, but I'm not sure I see a cape in his future.

[Elliot Balson]

Big brother and little brother? I guess. But it was creepy in the 60's and audiences have only gotten worse over the past 40 years. I guess with the right writer they could find a way to hit just the right tone, but in Nolan-verse I think they handled it how it would need to be done - the master and apprentice relationship. If the movie had ended with Blake arriving at the Batcave with Bruce waiting and Alfred serving them hot cocoa before they both went upstairs to bed it's have a really different tone.

Which is why I think it'd be good to skip the Robin stage completely - have him go straight into being Nightwing, Batman's equal. Plus, if it'll be part of the Batman reboot (and possibly a spin-off from the JL movie, as I think it's a good idea bringing him straight into the team before doing the new set of Batman movies - New 52 style) I'd assume Batman won't be that much older than Nightwing. Old enough to be established as Batman, but not quite at his peak. Anything between his 5th year to his first decade as Batman would be a good time for Nightwing to pop up - enough time for Bruce to be competent enough to pass his knowledge on, to be looking for (or thinking of looking for) someone who could be his successor while also young enough to keep it kind of brotherly. I'd also assume he'd start being Batman around Nightwing's age, having trained until then, making them more a brotherly age bracket - Morrison's Batman & Robin, with the originals back in their own roles. Two brothers, Alfred kind of like the Dad.

I think that could work - Grayson would be a little late to the game as he wouldn't have trained until that age, but he'd be physically fit and disciplined due to his time in the gymnastic show. Plus, he'd be getting a crash course from a guy who knows what he's doing - he wouldn't have the trial and error Bruce did, he'd be getting the main points from someone who's learnt his trade, and put it to use. He's also got to keep up with Bruce to prove he's worthy - likely getting to Bruce's level faster than he did.

And that dynamic would be impossible to implement in a Batman & Robin movie where you could have a young, dour-ish Bruce Wayne play the big brother to a more fun loving teenaged (could even make him in his late teens) Grayson? We could easily be talking about a 28 year old Batman and a 16 year old Robin. In which case I see very little difference in the two scenarios.

And if you're really worried about the relationship becoming sexualized, just give Grayson a love interest/crush in the movie. Let it be Barbara Gordon even. But I suppose this will just be an agree to disagree scenario yet again.

Exactly - you could make the age gap even bigger than I mentioned and just give the two love interests. Bring in Batgirl (even just as Barbara) and Catwoman (again, even just as Selina) and you've got some female characters that can equal the males, loves interests and get rid of the prospect of a relationship between the leads. Though, as this thread maybe shows, some might still assume it's there - just repressed.

[Steve Sensible]

Wouldn't it be kind of stupid on his part to call himself Robin, given that, y'know... his name's Robin?