196 replies to this topic

[steveuk]

I've never been entirely sure how that's supposed to work. Probably best not to think too much about it.

It worked very well from what i saw.

That was not my issue at all, quite the opposite. I think all the questions of Batman's worth and whether Wayne should just give money to charity and the fact that Gotham was essentially better off without him lead to nothing because they had to end on a series of hero cliches. Again, I'm the weirdo, most seem to like the last third of the film best and I liked it least.

The last third is the strongest material, but that's why I felt shortchanged by how briskly it was handled.

[garjones]

The last third is the strongest material, but that's why I felt shortchanged by how briskly it was handled.

Including all the cliches? The orphans on the bus and the ticking bomb? The dreaded red shirts were out in force too.

It's where I felt someone from Warners tapped Nolan on the shoulder and reminded him the $250m they graciously gave him was for a mass market superhero film. Which is realistic from a commercial point of view but it offered the least interesting aspects for me.

I'm not against that, The Avengers did the same but I think Whedon embraced it which is why it worked better for me.

[steveuk]

Including all the cliches? The orphans on the bus and the ticking bomb? The dreaded red shirts were out in force too.

It's where I felt someone from Warners tapped Nolan on the shoulder and reminded him the $250m they graciously gave him was for a mass market superhero film. Which is realistic from a commercial point of view but it offered the least interesting aspects for me.

I'm not against that, The Avengers did the same but I think Whedon embraced it which is why it worked better for me.

There's plenty of room for cliches in a 150 minute movie, they can be fun if they're handled well.

But the brisk pace here collapsed everything (cliches and non-cliches) together and sucked the life out of it for me.

[Dave Wallace]

I wonder whether there would have been a way to rework the story to give the Gotham siege a little more time to breathe without messing anything else around too much. Maybe have Bane launch his attack on Gotham whilst Batman is still around, then have Bruce come straight for Bane to sort him out, only for Bane to beat him (and then everything continues in much the same way as the original film).

It'd be interesting to see Gotham start to collapse under Bane's rule whilst Bruce is still there - and it might make it even more painful for Bruce to be taken away from that and unable to help, rather than simply watching it all play out on TV from his prison cell.

[Ryan]

Man, there's just so much going on, I love it the more I think about it. I love that - after all the speculation and haw-haw dismissals from nerds hung up on the realism thing - there actually is a Lazarus Pit in this film (and who else does Bruce find in there but Ra's al Ghul?) and, while it's handled differently from the source material, it still ultimately can destroy or rejuvenate you.

I also love that while Bane seems a dark mirror to Bruce initially, he's ultimately revealed to be Alfred to Talia's Bruce. He protects her, takes care of her in the Pit, he's later there for her after her father is killed and helps her enact her revenge on Bruce. Ultimately, Talia and Bruce are similar in a lot of ways, both wearing outwardly normal masks of wealthy industrialists but secretly unable to get over their parents death and going to ludicrous measures to achieve vengeance and/or justice over what happened to them, and both with a devoted guardian desperate to protect them.

However, Bruce can never avenge himself against Joe Chill and Alfred eventually realises how destructive his role as an enabler to Bruce's madness actually is, decides enough is enough and walks away. Though angry at first, it gives Bruce enough pause for consideration and he eventually realises Alfred was right and is able to get past it all. Conversely, the object of Talia's rage is very much alive and available to be punished and Bane is devoted enough to stick beside to the bitter end.

By constantly pushing Bruce to stop being a recluse, to give up the Batman and move on with his life, Alfred is able to help save Bruce. Bane, on the other hand, stays loyal to Talia no matter what, never makes her question the destructive path of vengeance she's on so the violence and anger continues and they pay the ultimate price as a result.

Looking back over it all, I find it amazing that over the course of three films we've gotten:

* A thorough examination of Bruce Wayne, and a fitting end for him
* Alfred, Jim Gordon, Ra's al Ghul, the Scarecrow, the Joker, Harvey Dent, Selina Kyle, Bane, Talia al Ghul, a composite Robin, Victor Zsasz, Carmine Falcone, Sal Maroni, Joe Chill, and in most cases essentially true and respectful interpretations to boot
* Story nods/aspects cribbed from Year One, The Long Halloween, The Killing Joke, Knightfall, No Man's Land, The Dark Knight Returns, the 60s movie even..!
* A Batmobile, a Batcycle, a Batcopter, the League of Assassins/Shadows, a god damn Lazarus pit

I don't think the claims the director didn't care or wasn't invested hold much weight at all. A truly disinterested director wouldn't even bother to include half of that lot in a manner as well and respectful as these films did. If you really want an example of a director who doesn't give a damn about the characters and source material he's working with, just take a gander at Bay's migraine-inducing CGI scrapfests. (Or rather don't, they're cinematic cancer)

Whoever takes over from here has an unenviable task to say the least. While I'd love a Batman Beyond style follow up with Blake, I know that it's highly unlikely and that we're either going to see Warner put him to pasture for a few years while Superman takes over tentpole duties, or heading for a straightforward Avengers-lite take on the Justice League, which doesn't excite me much, personally. I'd much rather see something strange and off the wall. Like, say, Aronovsky's deranged sounding 70s Year One take with a Tilda Swinton Joker for good measure. Won't ever happen but I can dream...

[Dave Wallace]

Tilda Swinton as the Joker? Genius.

[Rory Abel]

* A Batmobile, a Batcycle, a Batcopter, the League of Assassins/Shadows, a god damn Lazarus pit

Wait, what? Where was there a lazarus pit?

[Dave Wallace]

Wait, what? Where was there a lazarus pit?

I think some people have seen the pit prison as a sort of take on a lazarus pit - given the effect it had on Bruce. I quite like that reading of it.

[Arjan Dirkse]

I think some people have seen the pit prison as a sort of take on a lazarus pit - given the effect it had on Bruce. I quite like that reading of it.

It was cool that we finally got to see Qui-Gon as a force ghost.

The prison pit is kinda similar to a Lazarus pit from storytelling perspective, but I think I would have liked a literal Lazarus pit...it would have opened the DC movie universe to the more fanciful aspects of the comics DCU.

[Ryan]

Yeah, it's really quite obvious.

Comic Lazarus Pit - the secret to Ra's al Ghul's immortality, where he goes whenever he is killed. It can destroy you, or drive you insane but if you survive it, you come through reborn, rejuvenated.

TDKR Lazarus Pit - Bruce is cast in broken, half-dead, 'sees' Ra's al Ghul in it, could have been utterly destroyed by the experience. Instead, he rises out of it a new man with a new purpose. Reborn, rejuvenated. Plus, for added measure, it's where Talia is born, effectively granting Ra's al Ghul immortality in the traditional, real world sense of the term through his offspring.

It's a really clever way of working in something so completely implausible on the face of it.

[Rory Abel]

Yeah, it's really quite obvious.

Comic Lazarus Pit - the secret to Ra's al Ghul's immortality, where he goes whenever he is killed. It can destroy you, or drive you insane but if you survive it, you come through reborn, rejuvenated.

TDKR Lazarus Pit - Bruce is cast in broken, half-dead, 'sees' Ra's al Ghul in it, could have been utterly destroyed by the experience. Instead, he rises out of it a new man with a new purpose. Reborn, rejuvenated. Plus, for added measure, it's where Talia is born, effectively granting Ra's al Ghul immortality in the traditional, real world sense of the term through his offspring.

It's a really clever way of working in something so completely implausible on the face of it.

That's a huge stretch and I think definitely it's a case of you seeing what you want to see. Unless Nolan comes out and says that's what he intended I'm not buying it. I'm pretty sure it still just meant to be the prison that Bane originated from in the comics.

[al-x]

Hello:

Hey, we still got the thread "It would have been a better movie if..."
still around... I suggest we post our rewrites there so this thread won't
run up to 200 so fast.

Back to Rises: It isn't a perfect movie, but Nolan is more ambitious and
goes for the epic more than the previous Batman projects.

I like it that he portrayed the villains Bane, Joker, and al Ghul as terrorists
rather than over the top like in the comics.

My questions are:

Did going for the epic and falling a little short hurt the trilogy?
Would it have been better if Nolan kept it all a little simpler?


I give an A for effort to Nolan. Keep this question and personal
answer in mind because Superman is next year and the trailer
implies another epic so here we go again....

[Ryan]

Someone excitedly saying Coleman Reese was going to be the Riddler because his name is Mister Reece is a huge stretch. Assuming a reference to alligators in the sewers is a Killer Croc reference is a stretch. But Bane's prison doubling up as a Lazarus Pit? Not at all. These films are entirely about subtext and weaving in and wrapping around aspects of the lore in ways that surprise and which aren't immediately apparent. The obvious imagery of an seemingly crushed and lifeless Bruce rising out of it a new man, the fact it's the only place in the entire film we see Ra's al Ghul (why even bother bringing him back for a cameo at all?), and, most tellingly of all, the reveal that Talia was born there. The only way people can truly achieve a measure of immortality is either symbolically, as Bruce does, or through our children.

It isn't a stretch at all, it's a thoughtful, intelligent adaptation of a existing Batman concept.

[Trevor Robertson]

Yeah, it's pretty clear that the prison was designed in the way it was to metaphorically represent/adapt the Lazarus pit into the more realistic world of Nolan's Batman.

[lj cunningham]

That's a huge stretch and I think definitely it's a case of you seeing what you want to see. Unless Nolan comes out and says that's what he intended I'm not buying it. I'm pretty sure it still just meant to be the prison that Bane originated from in the comics.

It's not a stretch at all. It's a symbolic lazarus pit and Nolan kept hammering through all three movies how important symbols are. Bruce/Batman is a symbol for others and by movie's end, Batman becomes immortal, as a legend, living on as a symbol of what Gotham needed in it direst moment of need, living on as a symbol of hope in the memory of all Gothamites.

Ra's even says that he (himself) is immortal while coming to Bruce in a vision in the prison/pit.

Far from a stretch, Nolan grabbed from Batman's history/world and created his own/new takes on old ideas.

[Dave Wallace]

Hey, we still got the thread "It would have been a better movie if..." still around... I suggest we post our rewrites there so this thread won't run up to 200 so fast.

Since we're discussing the new Batman movie here, I think it makes sense to keep our opinions on how it could have been reworked here too.

[Chris D]

That's a huge stretch and I think definitely it's a case of you seeing what you want to see. Unless Nolan comes out and says that's what he intended I'm not buying it. I'm pretty sure it still just meant to be the prison that Bane originated from in the comics.

I'm going to have to side with those saying it's not much of a stretch at all. Bruce goes into a literal pit broken, he emerges from it rejuvenated. And while inside he even see Ra's who gives a little mention of immortality. It doesn't seem that far of a leap to interpret it as the Lazarus pit. Now you certainly don't have to agree with the interpretation, but it seems a pretty valid one. And I don't think you ever need the filmmaker to confirm or deny such things for interpretations to be valid.

[Don Lerch]

Since we're discussing the new Batman movie here, I think it makes sense to keep our opinions on how it could have been reworked here too.

Watch Out Dave, Don't mess with Al-X when discussing thread content. He's the Thread Police, Doncha Know.

[Chris D]

Just back from seeing it with my dad. I actually liked it even more the second time around. I don't think anything bothered me at all, really. I was able to understand Bane better, and his voice didn't seem nearly as jarring as it did the first time around. And the only real plot hole that struck me was Bruce's mother's pearl necklace. Because that was definitely ripped off her neck and ruined in Begins.

Even after reading the complaint/criticisms, for some reason they were even less apparent/relevant to me this time.

[Adam Wednesdays]

what is bane's voice like in the comics? is it ever described? i was taken aback when i first heard him speak in this movie. his voice didn't match his appearance at all and i found it quite silly. he sounded like captain picard.

Heh. Good point.

I liked the Bane voice, but you could practically hear the smirk on Tom Hardy's face for a lot of his lines.

As for how he sounds in the comics... well, he's a super-luchador from Latin America (I think?), so I'd imagine he's got an accent. And in keeping with the Star Trek frame of reference, there's only one obvious choice for devious men of Latin heritage and impressive chest muscles:



So I'm going to say that Bane sounds exactly like Ricardo Montalban. Which, frankly, makes him one of the greatest characters ever.