199 replies to this topic

[Trevor Robertson]

I appreciate the effort it took to type that out but... it doesn't help.

Well, there's two elements here: tension in editing and plot holes. I was only addressing the latter.

[al-x]

Hello:

I am not one to rip into comic movies and I have done so
in the past to movies whose names I won't mention.

While the Nolan trilogy isn't perfect, imho, it is still better
than Adam West, Tim Burton, Joel Schumacher ,etc.

Is this Batman done right? That is being debated in this thread
now, but I have to say these are the best Batman movies so far.

With these movies and the Arkham games, I'd say it is entertaining
now if you are a Batman fan as there are a good deal to choose from.


Al...

PS - Next year we'll be having a similar thread on another DC character
whose trailer we saw.

[Todd Gambrel]

Hello:

I am not one to rip into comic movies and I have done so
in the past to movies whose names I won't mention.

While the Nolan trilogy isn't perfect, imho, it is still better
than Adam West, Tim Burton, Joel Schumacher ,etc.

Is this Batman done right? That is being debated in this thread
now, but I have to say these are the best Batman movies so far.

With these movies and the Arkham games, I'd say it is entertaining
now if you are a Batman fan as there are a good deal to choose from.


Al...

PS - Next year we'll be having a similar thread on another DC character
whose trailer we saw.

Fully agree that if you are a Batman fan you really can't go wrong. But, with the exception of TDK, I like West better, and the first Keaton movie better than BB or TDKR

[garjones]

I saw it yesterday and thought it was a good movie. I dislike Ryan's black and white approach to the poll. I neither loved the movie or was disappointed in it.

Same here, I don't love any of the Nolan Batman films but enjoyed them all. I liked this one better than The Dark Knight which seems to be a minority view.

I think I'd have enjoyed them all a lot more if they weren't Batman films.

If you follow Talia al ghul in the books, you know the whole "save the World" front she puts on.

It's a bit of a part of the risk of watching an adaptation though isn't it? If not a direct adaptation of a single story they always take from the comics. You know Jean Grey will turn bad, Captain Stacy'll get killed - all of which are genuine surprises to most watching.

I haven't really read many stories with Talia (only one I think) in them and I did get surprised.

[Rory Abel]

I didn't know she was going to be Talia but the moment Batman handed over control of the reactor to her I knew she was going to be evil and working with Bane.

[Don Lerch]

Same here, I don't love any of the Nolan Batman films but enjoyed them all. I liked this one better than The Dark Knight which seems to be a minority view.

I think I'd have enjoyed them all a lot more if they weren't Batman films.

That's exactly my thoughts. While I agree with everyone who enjoyed Michael Caine's acting(It was superb). It wasn't Alfred. Alfred would NEVER leave. if you want, we could discuss realism vs comic books forever but I think that was the biggest of the few flaws I had with Nolan's storytelling and I think it was most evident in this installment of the Trilogy. Bale Batman never really faced a supervillian but in the books, Bane is one, and shoehorning him into the League of Shadows was a mistake. He was a good antagonist but wouldve been better served being named something else. Maybe even UBU, Ra's bodyguard from the Animated series.

[Will]

Ubu was Ra's bodyguard in the comics, too.

But I think Bane worked as a member of the League of Shadows. It tied the first and last movies together into one cohesive story.

[Chris D]

I think I would have probably liked the movies a little less if they hadn't been Batman movies. My affinity for Batman and all those characters probably allowed me to overlook some of the flaws of the films more than if it had been a movie about some random vigilante. Hard to say, though.

I also thought Bane worked as part of the League of Shadows. It offered easy motivation for why he wanted to take down Gotham and The Batman, as well as bringing the trilogy full circle. As for things like Alfred leaving, well I personally loved that Nolan allowed the characters to grow outside what they would do in the comic world (where they aren't really allowed to evolve as characters). Alfred walking away made sense. So did Bruce finally allowing himself to lay down his burdens.

[garjones]

I think I would have probably liked the movies a little less if they hadn't been Batman movies. My affinity for Batman and all those characters probably allowed me to overlook some of the flaws of the films more than if it had been a movie about some random vigilante. Hard to say, though.

My thinking is probably not quite like Don's. It didn't upset me that things deviated from the comics, throughout the films I got the feeling a lot of those flaws were caused by it being a superhero film. In places Nolan has some epic and weighty things he addresses and for me they get pulled back because there's a certain obligation to the franchise.

As I said right on the first page I couldn't love them, although I liked them, because the tone always felt a bit 'off'. The biggest criticism from even the fans is Batman doesn't work as well as Bruce Wayne, I really liked Begins until the last third.

[Steve Sensible]

The biggest criticism from even the fans is Batman doesn't work as well as Bruce Wayne, I really liked Begins until the last third.

That's definitely the case for me as well. I think Goyer resorts to cliché when it comes to the superhero stuff, partly because he's not that great a writer, and partly because he feels like he has to conform to Hollywood convention. Maybe Nolan feels that way too seeing as he's playing with such a vast amount of somebody else's money.

The problem with DKR is that it's nearly all superhero stuff. At least with the first two movies there was other stuff to engage the brain.

[Dave Wallace]

The bike was so cool. I loved watching it especially when manuevering.

Yeah, the filmmakers obviously fell in love with that rolling 'schvschvschvschv' thing that the Bat-pod did in DKR, didn't they?

With these movies and the Arkham games, I'd say it is entertaining now if you are a Batman fan as there are a good deal to choose from.

You just reminded me - that brief sequence where Catwoman and Batman team-up to go down into the sewers and find Bane is pure Arkham City, isn't it? Catwoman going in with the flashy acrobatic fighting and Batman swooping down from above. It really played out like a scene from the game.

[Jim Ohara]

I think Nolan could have made an even better movie if he hadn't been forced to use the Batman mythos in constructing the story. He wouldn't have to force villains like Scarecrow and Bane into the plot (and include all the other Batman trappings over the three films). However, he wouldn't have had anywhere near the same box office.

I think it's strange for us comic fans to see the story and characters we know so well used differently. If a character in the movie isn't like a character in the books we complain. When Xavier and friends died in X3 it helped us dismiss the movie. It's not just comics either - we don't want Harry Potter or Twilight or Game of Thrones to be different. Otherwise what's the point of featuring the character all - just give him a different name and leave the franchise intact.

However, once you accept it's different from comics, that Bruce can retire, that Two Face is really dead, that Bruce could be in love with Katie Holmes, then I think it's easier to enjoy the movie. It took me till the third movie to realize this wasn't like any other comic movie - this was a beginning, middle and end, the Count of Monte Cristo told with Batman trappings. It's ultimately an elseworlds story. And with that I like it for what it is, but I can see why regular Batman fans would be frustrated.

[Steve Sensible]

Yeah, the filmmakers obviously fell in love with that rolling 'schvschvschvschv' thing that the Bat-pod did in DKR, didn't they?

I've never been entirely sure how that's supposed to work. Probably best not to think too much about it.

[Trevor Robertson]

That's exactly my thoughts. While I agree with everyone who enjoyed Michael Caine's acting(It was superb). It wasn't Alfred. Alfred would NEVER leave.

"During the events of Knightquest, Alfred accompanies Wayne to England, and becomes enraged when Wayne insists on endangering his own health while paraplegic. This was the culmination of several weeks of Wayne's self-destructive behavior, and when Wayne returns to Gotham City, Alfred remains in England, tendering his resignation."

From Wikipedia.

Not only did Alfred leave, but he left during the story the movie adapted...

[Johnny Henning]

Just to go on about BANE for a moment, I think this character influenced him far more than Hannibal Lector or Darth Vader, who've been mentioned in nearly every review:



However, the one thing that we really learn by the end of the movie is that Bane is really an empty suit - or empty mask. He is playing a role given him by Talia and, at heart, he's a brute, an alpha male prisoner with no real philosophy outside of domination and destruction.

He's even less of a real leader than the unnamed Mutant Gang Leader in Dark Knight Returns.

[Dave Wallace]

I've never been entirely sure how that's supposed to work. Probably best not to think too much about it.

Me neither.

[garjones]

However, once you accept it's different from comics, that Bruce can retire, that Two Face is really dead, that Bruce could be in love with Katie Holmes, then I think it's easier to enjoy the movie. It took me till the third movie to realize this wasn't like any other comic movie - this was a beginning, middle and end, the Count of Monte Cristo told with Batman trappings. It's ultimately an elseworlds story. And with that I like it for what it is, but I can see why regular Batman fans would be frustrated.

That was not my issue at all, quite the opposite. I think all the questions of Batman's worth and whether Wayne should just give money to charity and the fact that Gotham was essentially better off without him lead to nothing because they had to end on a series of hero cliches. Again, I'm the weirdo, most seem to like the last third of the film best and I liked it least.

[Robert B]

I doubt Nolan is a gamer but Bane reminded me of a Metal Gear Solid boss.

[Dave Wallace]

Again, I'm the weirdo, most seem to like the last third of the film best and I liked it least.

No, I think I'm probably with you on that. I really quite enjoyed all the setup and the gradual build-up to Batman's return - in fact, I think I was on board all the way until Bane breaks Batman's back. It was after that that things started to fall apart - as though there was just too much to handle and Nolan couldn't hold it together whilst also leading up to the ending he wanted.

[Don Lerch]

I think Nolan could have made an even better movie if he hadn't been forced to use the Batman mythos in constructing the story. He wouldn't have to force villains like Scarecrow and Bane into the plot (and include all the other Batman trappings over the three films). However, he wouldn't have had anywhere near the same box office.

I think it's strange for us comic fans to see the story and characters we know so well used differently. If a character in the movie isn't like a character in the books we complain. When Xavier and friends died in X3 it helped us dismiss the movie. It's not just comics either - we don't want Harry Potter or Twilight or Game of Thrones to be different. Otherwise what's the point of featuring the character all - just give him a different name and leave the franchise intact.

However, once you accept it's different from comics, that Bruce can retire, that Two Face is really dead, that Bruce could be in love with Katie Holmes, then I think it's easier to enjoy the movie. It took me till the third movie to realize this wasn't like any other comic movie - this was a beginning, middle and end, the Count of Monte Cristo told with Batman trappings. It's ultimately an elseworlds story. And with that I like it for what it is, but I can see why regular Batman fans would be frustrated.

I am not frustrated about it( although it appears someone has a bit of frustration towards Miss Potter from Dawson's creek ) . I liked the movie. My problem was the difficulty Nolan had merging his story with the Batman mythos. i like the Count of monte cristo theme though