189 replies to this topic

[Will]

sorry if I'm about to get very defensive here, but: Yes, I groom (myself, right?) Do I dress right? - I wear clothes...what do you mean by "dress right"? I try really hard to not act in any wrong ways. Where are these "right places" and is it really so simple as saying a particular string of "right things"? What are these right things to say? I'd say that I know who I am as much as anyone, but as to what women are looking for, I'll be quite honest, it certainly seems I don't.

I think what he means is:
Do you shave every day, wash your hair every day (or at least every other day), are your fingernails cleaned and trimmed?
Do you wear pop culture t-shirts and baggy clothes all the time? Are your clothes clean, unwrinkled and not form fitting but at least the proper size for you?
The right places are any place that people go: the grocery store, the pub, church, concerts, clubs, parks, coffee shops, etc.
The right thing to open up with is "Hello." Don't ask her if she's ladylike and enjoys Yale. If you're nervous in talking to women, pick one out and ask her any question you would a guy you weren't trying to pick up. Get the answer, tell her thanks, smile, and you can walk away. Or if she seems open to conversation then let it flow. Don't concentrate on trying to get her number, concentrate on what she's saying and respond in kind.
Continue until you don't have any hesitation to talk to girls. Approach and speak with confidence, a clear voice and look her in the eyes. Just like you would a guy.

Please keep in mind I'm not trying to be condescending and I don't think Jim is either.

[garjones]

I think Jim meant just make an effort rather than you must dress like some preppy guy and have a short back and sides*. Whatever your style nobody really goes for people that don't make an effort. Many a goth or punk takes a lot of time over how they look.

It was always an observation I made at college that as much as people could take the piss the goth kids were always in a relationship.

* Bear in mind he is a cross-dresser.

[Will]

And don't be afraid of rejection. You may be turned down by nine out of ten but you at least got a yes from one. And sometimes that's all it takes.

[Jake]

In regard to Internet dating, remember it takes a little bit of time for most women to be comfortable meeting a man they met on the Internet in real life. Also? Never use the wink/nudge/flirt function. Women get tons of these every day. Pay the money to the site and write her some kind of charming message. Nothing long, but something that will make her laugh. Do not - DO NOT - be self deprecating with a woman who hasn't met you yet. It's not charming, no matter what you think your sense of humor is, and only tears you down before you've had the faintest chance to build yourself up. If you write an email and she doesn't answer, write another one an email. Be a man whore and send messages to any of them who vaguely interest you, because remember, you may be surprised. My wife - on her profile - wrote she wasn't interested in dudes connected to the military or those with tattoos. Four years later, she's married to one.

And in all things dating, online or otherwise: CONFIDENCE.

[Robert B]

I think Jim meant just make an effort rather than you must dress like some preppy guy and have a short back and sides*. Whatever your style nobody really goes for people that don't make an effort. Many a goth or punk takes a lot of time over how they look.

It was always an observation I made at college that as much as people could take the piss the goth kids were always in a relationship.

There's definitely a lot to that. There's no need to go metrosexual on us, but women take notice when a guy has invested some thought, time, and money into his personal appearance. Guys take notice when a woman does it too. I'd much rather date an "unattractive" girl who has created a nice look for herself and is proud of her appearance than an "attractive" girl who throws on whatever frumpy clothes in the morning and hates herself. Who wouldn't? Which one sounds like the more pleasant relationship?

Pride in one's self is a really attractive trait. Exercise is a good thing along those lines too. Not even to lose weight or build muscle (though that doesn't hurt), but that you feel better about yourself when you exercise regularly. And I personally think it makes you a more positive, happy person when you get the blood really pumping every day or so.

[al-x]

I think what he means is:
Do you shave every day, wash your hair every day (or at least every other day), are your fingernails cleaned and trimmed?
Do you wear pop culture t-shirts and baggy clothes all the time? Are your clothes clean, unwrinkled and not form fitting but at least the proper size for you?
The right places are any place that people go: the grocery store, the pub, church, concerts, clubs, parks, coffee shops, etc.
The right thing to open up with is "Hello." Don't ask her if she's ladylike and enjoys Yale. If you're nervous in talking to women, pick one out and ask her any question you would a guy you weren't trying to pick up. Get the answer, tell her thanks, smile, and you can walk away. Or if she seems open to conversation then let it flow. Don't concentrate on trying to get her number, concentrate on what she's saying and respond in kind.
Continue until you don't have any hesitation to talk to girls. Approach and speak with confidence, a clear voice and look her in the eyes. Just like you would a guy.

Please keep in mind I'm not trying to be condescending and I don't think Jim is either.

Nice of you to step in Will, but did you have to say that too?

Also, on a side note, I did mention trying to personally get back in shape,
get my act together, etc. but you all dismissed it. Now, Craggy is being
told in principle what I was saying all along.

I don't want credit for that... I just don't want to be seen as weird or off center
anymore.


All in all, it is still nice to get new posters here, fresh faces, inputs, etc.


Al...

[brucegray666]

But no one else has mentioned getting in shape. And, to be honest, "getting your act together" is a pretty vague piece of advice.

[Jim Ohara]

sorry if I'm about to get very defensive here, but: Yes, I groom (myself, right?) Do I dress right? - I wear clothes...what do you mean by "dress right"? I try really hard to not act in any wrong ways. Where are these "right places" and is it really so simple as saying a particular string of "right things"? What are these right things to say? I'd say that I know who I am as much as anyone, but as to what women are looking for, I'll be quite honest, it certainly seems I don't.

Guys have a habit of making some effort but not that much really. Compare to what girls go through - they paint their faces, try on 20 different items of clothing to get the right one, they get all sorts of creams and stuff to take care of different parts of their bodies. Guys struggle to cut their nails and iron their clothes.

So what I mean is have you gone to a stylist to figure out what kind of haircut works with your face shape. Have you looked at GQ to figure out what clothes work and don't work. Do you own plenty of smart looking shirts, good shoes that you polish regularly, something for you skin to deal with spots or other issues, a good razor to get a clean shave? Do you own shirts that you paid more than 30GBP for, trousers that fit, t shirts that are stylish rather than comic booky? Do you have good jeans that fit well, trainers that you keep smart? Do you know what colors work for you?

For example, I know light blue works best for me because my eyes are my standout feature. I know I don't have the slim physique to wear a form fitting tshirt anymore, so I throw a white striped casual shirt over the top or a blue tshirt. If I'm buying jeans I'll try on 6-8 different pairs to find the right ones, but I also know tan slacks are better on me than jeans. And I have smart trainers with brown grey tones. I know this is the 'outfit' that works best for me. I get my hair cut by a stylist every 5 weeks and pay $60 a cut. I even got a spray tan a week ago as I'm going to be at the pool when I visit some friends this weekend and didn't want to be my translucent self.

This is all stuff I learned to do from training by the Mrs. I was lucky to get trained, I could just as easily have remained single and still dressed like a teenager. We're told to just be ourselves, it's what inside that matters, that there's someone out there for us. And while that's all true long term, short term it's not that easy. This relationship thread stuff has been going on for over 3 years now. And most of the single guys are still single. This isn't intended to be insulting, and I can understand the reaction of being defensive, but this forum isn't (or shouldn't be) about putting others down. Every other married guy here will know what I'm talking about and I think will agree with me. Girls want someone who can take care of themselves, so they don't have to. Your appearance is how they know if you can do that or not. watch those 'What not to Wear' or Queer Eye shows - what they're teaching really matters. I swear Craggy, a guy like you should be swimming in quim and I think you could get to that place really easily.

[Steve Sensible]

Guys have a habit of making some effort but not that much really. Compare to what girls go through - they paint their faces, try on 20 different items of clothing to get the right one, they get all sorts of creams and stuff to take care of different parts of their bodies.

To be fair, there are just as many women who could do well to make more of an effort as well.

I agree with what you're saying though. All too often you hear the mantra "why should I change who I am for someone else? Why can't people just accept me for who I am?" Everyone could use a little work. The moment you get into a relationship after being single for a while, you realise just what a slob you've become.

[Todd Gross]

Fair question... in the spirit of openness too, I like that.

It has to do with personal finances and health.
I am in the red and need to be in the black and
I am a candidate for a stroke or heart attack if
I don't get my act together. It is a little scary for me.



Some months now...
I thought I had something with the girl who attended Yale
but it fizzled and I let myself go healthwise and girthwise.
Now, I have to regroup and pull myself back together again.

I still talk to girls now and then, but nothing serious.



Al...

Fair and valid answers. I appreciate your honesty and candor.

I would say though that if an opportunity with a woman presented itself, you should pursue it. We are not always in what we think should be our "ideal state" when someone comes along. Sometimes meeting someone when we are not at our best gives them a more honest picture of us. If they see us like that and still want to try to connect, YOU MUST PURSUE IT.

I make you no promises what path it will follow but I can guarantee you will regret not seeing where it could have gone.

I wish you success on your goals.

[al-x]

Hello:

Thanks Todd, I needed that.


Al...

[David Meadows]

So what I mean is have you gone to a stylist to figure out what kind of haircut works with your face shape. Have you looked at GQ to figure out what clothes work and don't work. Do you own plenty of smart looking shirts, good shoes that you polish regularly, something for you skin to deal with spots or other issues, a good razor to get a clean shave? Do you own shirts that you paid more than 30GBP for, trousers that fit, t shirts that are stylish rather than comic booky? Do you have good jeans that fit well, trainers that you keep smart? Do you know what colors work for you?

Before you ask any of the above questions, you need to ask one more: Do you want to date a woman who believes all those things are important?

If the answer is yes, then that's great, all Jim's questions are great.

But make sure the answer to that first question is really yes before you start changing who you are.

Also, watch Grease (the musical) and ask yourself: was that really a happy ending for Sandy and Danny? If you're answering "yes", then go ahead and do all the stuff Jim asks.

[Todd Gross]

Hello:

Thanks Todd, I needed that.


Al...

You're welcome, Al.

I may tweak and tease you and others but I genuinely want someone special to be part of your lives. I had a long, hard road before I met Christel but those challenges prepared me for my relationship with her. I try to offer advice from experience so others may identify and avoid landmines that I stepped on with both feet.

I have said this before and will continue to repeat it: It's amazing what you find when you aren't looking. You just have to be ready to see where it goes when the opportunity presents itself.

[Robert B]

Todd's good people.

[Jim Ohara]

The woman doesn't necessarily think those things are important David, but they help set a better impression. A girl may not think you having a clean bedroom is important, but it sets a better impression than living in a tip. It's all about increasing your odds. I've yet to meet a girl that says 'that guy is so hot with his greasy hair, unclipped fingernails and stained t shirt'. Comparing it to Grease is a bit much.

You can take the life stance that you shouldn't change anything about yourself and that you're perfect just the way you are. If so then don't complain if you're single or you don't have the job you want or whatever. Too many people think that way and we create a culture of entitlement.

[Todd Gross]

Todd's good people.

I try to be.

[craggy]

I dress up to go out. I don't always shave, granted, I often let a bit of a beard form, but always keep my nails clean and tidy. (I recently managed to stop biting my nails somehow, and since then take a tiny bit of pride in them being all smooth and stuff. Even have one of those wee nail buffer sanding block things) I'll maybe not try on 10 different outfits before going out, but I'll certainly mentally sort through what I have that looks good, and make sure it's all clean and ironed (if needs be) and ready, with a few back-ups, the day before any relatively public situation where there might be "GASP!" girls. When buying clothes, yes, I definitely take a lot into the changing rooms to try on, because I prefer to look and feel good in my clothes than just buy the nearest thing that vaguely fits the description of the item I'm looking for.

However, I do agree with David's point. I realise it'd be easier to at least hook up with girls if I were to put on a costume and a persona that aren't mine, and to lie to them and say and do what I believe the majority want to hear. I don't often feel like that's what I want though. I often make mention of pretty girls I see. There's no doubt that many of them are conventionally attractive, and clearly do follow mainstream fashion trends and the like, but just as many have their own styles, or perhaps attract me not because of their hair, or their clothes, or their butts or their boobs, but because of a smile, or something funny I hear them say, and really, if I'm going to spend time with someone, I'd much rather they be interesting to me as a person, than simply hot. I choose my guy friends the same way. I don't hang out with those guys who only watch and talk about football or spend all their day at the gym or out boozing. I enjoy jokes with my friends, often at each other's expense, yes, but I can't stand people who are only constantly about putting everyone else down in "banter".

Confidence is important, definitely. I see it in all people and I am more attracted, either for friendship or romance, to those with confidence than those without. I don't feel I'd be very confident if I was acting false.


edit: as an aside, this thread has had me down all day.

[garjones]

I'm with Todd really, there has to be an element of you just having a go and be damned with the consequences.

For most of my 20s I held back and procrastinated a bit like Al and didn't get many girls and moaned why I didn't and then I was at 29 and a really hot girl and I got talking, I thought nothing of it but I mate of mine suggested she may be interested. At that point I thought 'fuck it, if I make an arse of myself so what, I won't get anywhere if I don't try". A week later there was a Christmas party and I made my move and it worked.

I got dumped 8 months later but it wasn't a setback in my confidence. I felt I could do it again and did. A few years later I was here:



The sad news is the very pretty bridesmaid in the background did catch the bouqet and is married now so I can't give out any contact details.

[craggy]

thats not sad news. thats awesome! bouqet catching should guarantee impending matrimony!

[Todd Gross]

Craggy (and others): Do you have your own "power suit"?

It doesn't have to be a suit and tie. It is simply a combination of clothes/colors that you personally really like. Something that when you wear it, it gives you a bit more bounce in your step.

I have a few:
- Green polo shirt, black pants or black jeans (no fade) with a black belt and black shoes
- Red polo shirt, blue jeans (minimal or no fade) with either black belt and black shoes or brown belt and brown shoes
- Blue polo shirt, khakis with brown belt and brown shoes

While they may not be considered haute couture or super-stylish, but they are outfits that I really like and give me a boost in confidence.

Look at your wardrobe and see what you like to wear. When you go somewhere with woman-meeting potential, wear that combo. It might make a positive difference.