194 replies to this topic

[Johnny Henning]

A different type of discussion. The Avengers has people saying, "Did you laugh at the Hulk? Wasn't Hawkeye badass?" Promethus has us (some of us) saying, "Do you think...?"

Even you, in your it-was-terrible posts are still moved to discuss the points you claim the film itself doesn't address. If it can get you talking about them, it doesn't actually need to answer them itself.

Certainly, that is true, but I think there is a qualitative difference to the sorts of questions asked and why. For example, in Inception, no one in the movie asks if they are dreaming when they think they are awake. It is a suggestion in the movie by Mal, but no one really thinks that. Yet, the question does plant a seed (incept an idea) in the audience that resonates to the end, and that question then spills over into your life in an unexpected way. Not - am I dreaming when I think I'm awake, but more, are the choices made and actions taken in dreaming any less important than when we are waking? Do the internal consequences of conception - our thoughts, dreams and fantasies - matter less because they have no direct real world consequences or does the existence of imagination guide the effect we all have on our world?

So, the question "is Cobb dreaming through the film or at the end?" which is never actually asked by anyone in the movie finds attachment to a lot that goes on outside the movie.

The same for the question whether or not Deckard is a replicant and does not know it in the original theatrical cut of Blade Runner. The story, by not directly asking or answering the question, leaves more of an impression that makes it more significant to the viewers. A question, ironically, Ridley Scott answers in later and in my opinion lesser cuts of the movie.

In Prometheus, the reasons why the Engineer made us, why they created the Xenomorph and why they wanted to destroy the human race on Earth are interesting to speculate about, but they don't escape the confines of the narrative. They have not become intrinsically significant, and I think that is due to the carelessness of the storytelling and insignificance of the characters' actions.

[Robert B]

I guess my biggest question about Prometheus is how Idris Elba got Steven Stills' accordion. I'm surprised people that far into the future would even know who Steven Stills is.

[steveuk]

I guess my biggest question about Prometheus is how Idris Elba got Steven Stills' accordion. I'm surprised people that far into the future would even know who Steven Stills is.

Well, his character does. Vickers doesn't.

[Steve Sensible]

I'm surprised people that far into the future would even know who Steven Stills is.

They're only about 80 years in the future. Pop-culture is much better archived nowadays than it was in, for instance, Beethoven's day, but we know about him.

[Johnny Henning]

And did you notice that flip-flops seem to be the preferred footwear for men at the end of this century? That will probably turn out to be the most prophetic part of the movie.

[Arjan Dirkse]

Who is Steven Stills?

[Robert B]

And did you notice that flip-flops seem to be the preferred footwear for men at the end of this century? That will probably turn out to be the most prophetic part of the movie.

And basketball is the preferred sport among androids. Suck it, soccer.

Edited by Robert B, 13 June 2012 - 04:28 PM.

[Johnny Henning]

I guess my biggest question about Prometheus is how Idris Elba got Steven Stills' accordion. I'm surprised people that far into the future would even know who Steven Stills is.

And that David would be watching Laurence of Arabia of all things - it's a movie you rarely see today. I wonder if they had ALIEN in entertainment queue - the entire crew probably should've watched that before going out there.

Heck, if they have Alien, they would have Prometheus too. I'm sure it will be available online by 2089. That woulda saved them a lot of time and expense.

[Steve Sensible]

Who is Steven Stills?

It's actually Stephen Stills (I feel your pain, Stephen.) Of Crosby, Stills and Nash.

[Robert B]

And that David would be watching Laurence of Arabia of all things - it's a movie you rarely see today. I wonder if they had ALIEN in entertainment queue - the entire crew probably should've watched that before going out there.

Heck, if they have Alien, they would have Prometheus too. I'm sure it will be available online by 2089. That woulda saved them a lot of time and expense.

Lesson #1: if a reptilian tentacle-tooth-creature rises up out of a black pool of primordeal ooze, don't try to touch it no matter how "cute" you think it is.

[garjones]

I'm not sure how successful a game of football on a spaceship would be, even a game of dab (kicking at against a wall) usually ends in a few broken windows.

[Christian U]

I don't know what to tell people who didn't like it other than I must engage with movies/TV much differently than a lot of people here. This goes for the Lost thread too. And last year I think I liked The Tree of Life a lot more than most people here did.

I think it boils down to the fact I loathe exposition and many of you are in favor it. The Inception comparison is an interesting one. Prometheus doesn't really make any more or less sense than Inception, but the former film is like 10% exposition while the latter film is like 90% exposition, and the latter film is more universally loved (although it obviously has its detractors). I far prefer Prometheus, but if it explained a lot of what you're all calling to be explained then I would like it far less (and if Inception did less explaining I would have liked it a lot more). For that reason, Prometheus was the more dreamlike movie even though Inception spent most of the running time literally in dreams, and I like that.

Prometheus just basically let you into its mythical space and let you have a look around. Most of what you gleaned, you gleaned from observation rather than exposition. Which is how I like it. I find plot to be kind of boring in general, and I'm more interested in the experience and how it makes me think and feel. For the post surgery scene, I too thought her recovery time was weird but my reaction was basically "that's weird, but so what, it's a myth."

Then again I've never been into sci-fi, much less hard science fiction, as much as a lot of you are. I think if I came from that background I'd agree with more of you.

Still haven't seen Prometheus, but judging from what people are saying here, I think it's more about making sense than exposition. Inception had too much exposition, I entirely agree, but so did Lost (which apparently you liked) - there's hardly anything had as much exposition as Lost. It's just that it was often contradictory and didn't make a lot of sense.

The latter seems to be more what people are taking issue with in the case of Prometheus than lack of explanation.

[garjones]

People do look for different things though Christian.

I brushed upon earlier that if there's a thread on science and space travel, the first two in the thread will be SteveUK and Johnny. If there's one about music and art Robert and Sarah will be first there. That doesn't mean either are right or wrong but I have to admit half the questions here never occurred to me before entering the thread as issues. They make logical sense, although seem a little picky in places, but I didn't care as I enjoyed the experience. I lean more towards the Robert and Sarah outlook I admit.

I always have an issue with 'none of the characters are likeable' for example, I have no idea why they need to be, I've loved many stories where everyone is a complete twat but it's important to some.

This film is entertainingly divisive, there have been some really scathing assessments but it remains at mid 70s from critics and audience scores from Rotten Tomatoes.

[Robert B]

A lot of the "sense" stuff that I've seen has to do with character motivation, and to be honest I have no idea why anybody does anything. It's pouring rain here today and I just saw an overweight woman walk across the parking lot holding a giant soda and wearing pajama bottoms for pants. And I'm supposed to be confused by the way anyone in Prometheus behaves? Please.

[Steve Sensible]

If people in movies didn't do stupid things then half the horror movies in existence would be about 5 minutes long. I think the problem lies with the fact that people were expecting more from Prometheus.

Which I can understand - I even commented on it here straight after I saw the movie. Unlike others though, it didn't completely ruin my enjoyment of the film.

[Robert B]

People do look for different things though Christian.

I brushed upon earlier that if there's a thread on science and space travel, the first two in the thread will be SteveUK and Johnny. If there's one about music and art Robert and Sarah will be first there. That doesn't mean either are right or wrong but I have to admit half the questions here never occurred to me before entering the thread as issues. They make logical sense, although seem a little picky in places, but I didn't care as I enjoyed the experience. I lean more towards the Robert and Sarah outlook I admit.

I always have an issue with 'none of the characters are likeable' for example, I have no idea why they need to be, I've loved many stories where everyone is a complete twat but it's important to some.

This film is entertainingly divisive, there have been some really scathing assessments but it remains at mid 70s from critics and audience scores from Rotten Tomatoes.

Yeah, I think Sarah and I maybe see things like this a bit in the way that Federico Fellini does:

“I don’t like the idea of “understanding” a film. I don’t believe that rational understanding is an essential element in the reception of any work of art. Either a film has something to say to you or it hasn’t. If you are moved by it, you don’t need it explained to you. If not, no explanation can make you moved by it."

But I agree, it's fun when a movie is this divisive. Generally I think any time something is loved or hated to this extent, the filmmakers did something right. Even if I'm on the "hated" side of the coin.

[Johnny Henning]

A lot of the "sense" stuff that I've seen has to do with character motivation, and to be honest I have no idea why anybody does anything. It's pouring rain here today and I just saw an overweight woman walk across the parking lot holding a giant soda and wearing pajama bottoms for pants. And I'm supposed to be confused by the way anyone in Prometheus behaves? Please.

That reminds me a bit of the "movie moments" essay in William Goldman's Adventures in the Screen Trade

Scriptwriter William Goldman calls them 'movie moments' - real-life incidents that 'won't play' on film because they shatter the special reality every movie must create. What audience, Goldman asks, would suspend disbelief for the following: a man decides he must speak to the richest, most famous, most protected woman in the world. He scales the castle walls that surround her, and although he's spotted by a guard, he blithely proceeds to ignore screaming security alarms, shimmy up a drainpipe, find an open window, and, by pure chance, enter the bedroom of the fabulous female (her personal sentry is walking the dogs). She awakes to confront the intruder and hastily buzzes for assistance. No answer. So . . . Michael Fagan and Queen Elizabeth II have a chat about life and unemployment.

'It's fabulous newspaper reading,' says Goldman, 'yet it has nothing to do with proper storytelling. If you handed it in as a screenplay, you would find yourself thrown out without ceremony.'

Now I didn't completely hate the movie. It was an experience that offered some benefits even despite the many bad ideas - and, it was an idea movie in a "bad idea" sense - and the idiot plot.

Now, it is and is not true that "If people in movies didn't do stupid things then half the horror movies in existence would be about 5 minutes long."

The basic assumption everyone should give a horror movie is that the characters DO NOT KNOW they are in a horror movie. However, you should expect characters in a movie to behave intelligently in the context of their situation despite having an incomplete and subjective view of it. In that sense, the story the movie tells plays against the ideas the filmmakers want to explore.

I mean, hell - if your creatures were this stupid, wouldn't you think it's a good idea to start over? David is damn near a "perfect organism" but his only flaw lies in the instructions Weyland gives him. ("I have what appears to be an invasive, biotoxic substance in a jar. What would you like me to do with it, sir?" "Slip it into someone's drink." "But, with all due respect, wouldn't that put the entire crew, including yourself, at risk, sir?" "Just do what I tell you, David, and stop asking stupid questions. I need to get back to my Cryo porn.")

At the end when Shaw asks why the engineers want to destroy the human race, it's already become a multiple choice question just based on what's happened in the movie.

[Christian U]

People do look for different things though Christian.

Oh, absolutely, I'm not denying that. It's just that the point that most people were disappointed with didn't seem to be lack of explanation, but rather contradictoriness/randomness.

I always have an issue with 'none of the characters are likeable' for example, I have no idea why they need to be, I've loved many stories where everyone is a complete twat but it's important to some.

That's one we've discussed now and then, I love some stories in which everybody is a dick, but when you've got a form that relies on identification with the characters (like most TV series do), you've may have a bit of a problem.

A lot of the "sense" stuff that I've seen has to do with character motivation, and to be honest I have no idea why anybody does anything. It's pouring rain here today and I just saw an overweight woman walk across the parking lot holding a giant soda and wearing pajama bottoms for pants. And I'm supposed to be confused by the way anyone in Prometheus behaves? Please.

But if you knew the woman, you'd probably understand why she acts the way she does. In fact, you would probably expect her to. If she was actually somebody who behaves extremely poshly and would now suddenly do this, you'd have to conclude that something was wrong with her, maybe that she'd be having a breakdown or a midlife crisis or something.

Coherent, believable, three-dimensional characters are one of the many aspects that make a story work. They're not always important to the same extent, especially in movies, of course.

Yeah, I think Sarah and I maybe see things like this a bit in the way that Federico Fellini does:

“I don’t like the idea of “understanding” a film. I don’t believe that rational understanding is an essential element in the reception of any work of art. Either a film has something to say to you or it hasn’t. If you are moved by it, you don’t need it explained to you. If not, no explanation can make you moved by it."

Yeah, but with that attitude, you can't discuss any art at all. You can just either nod, or shrug, or walk away. We'd have to kill all the threads here except the ones about our health and stuff!

[Johnny Henning]

Yeah, but with that attitude, you can't discuss any art at all. You can just either nod, or shrug, or walk away. We'd have to kill all the threads here except the ones about our health and stuff!

Like that would be a bad thing...?

[Steve Sensible]

Interesting article: Prometheus shows why prequels don't work.

Prequels like Prometheus make the mistake of assuming that knowing could ever be as exciting and psychologically powerful as not knowing.

Can't argue with that.