192 replies to this topic

[Christian U]

Bloody hell.

[The Lorcan Nagle]

On the Mummy movies, you can chalk me up as someone else who really enjoyed the first one (not seen any others). I felt it was a great spiritual successor to Indiana Jones.

Jim - speaking of self-indulgent aspects of the Matrix sequels - how do you feel about the Neo vs. Hundreds of Agent Smiths in Reloaded? I thought that was probably the worst part of the sequels. Just kept going and going.

[steveuk]

I've always assumed 'A Good Year' was a way for Ridley and Russell to go on a jolly to the wine regions of France while someone else picked up the tab.

[Jim Ohara]

Jim - speaking of self-indulgent aspects of the Matrix sequels - how do you feel about the Neo vs. Hundreds of Agent Smiths in Reloaded? I thought that was probably the worst part of the sequels. Just kept going and going.

The Burly Brawl? I personally loved it. I'd never seen anything like it before. I do see that it got a little flat before the end of the fight, but I was really excited the first time I saw it. It was really the first proper fight of the second movie, and it was 45 minutes in before it started so I was ready. They kept trying to upstage the fights one after the other. Clearly they thought Neo fighting just one guy wasn't enough, so have him fight hundreds. The bit where Smith says 'More' and dozens more guys arrive is super cool, and I liked how they made Neo adapt to fight hundreds instead of just a few. The Chateaux fight seemed smaller in comparison - beautifully shot but silly when Neo just took out 100 agents and can stop bullets with his mind. They really should have had him go all jedi in that fight.

After that we got a Superman fight. The Matrix movies did that right too - I remember seeing it and thinking 'for the first time, this is how you do a movie about superheroes'. Similarly the scene with Neo flying through the city and the wake of cars trailing behind him.

There were lots of other bad parts in the Matrix movies - Smith becoming human, Neo losing his sight and going to the machine city, and the underwhelming Mech fight (basically everything in Zion). Really the Zion reality should have been another Matrix, it's the only thing that made sense. It was kind of unsatisfying - yay we won the way against the machines but we still live in a cave under the earth eating gruel and wearing rags. Neo being a program as humans need a savior was an interesting plot point they didn't explore. They had this amazing sci-fi universe to explore and they came up short. But then the same can be said of Star Wars.

[David Meadows]

I seem to have forgotten more Ridley Scott films than I realised.

[Johnny Henning]

I've always assumed 'A Good Year' was a way for Ridley and Russell to go on a jolly to the wine regions of France while someone else picked up the tab.

Why go through all the time and effort to see the actual movie after seeing that trailer? It really shows everything.

There were lots of other bad parts in the Matrix movies - Smith becoming human, Neo losing his sight and going to the machine city, and the underwhelming Mech fight (basically everything in Zion). Really the Zion reality should have been another Matrix, it's the only thing that made sense. It was kind of unsatisfying - yay we won the way against the machines but we still live in a cave under the earth eating gruel and wearing rags. Neo being a program as humans need a savior was an interesting plot point they didn't explore. They had this amazing sci-fi universe to explore and they came up short. But then the same can be said of Star Wars.

Yeah, they missed the boat on a lot of good ideas. Harry Knowles had an unusual bit of insight on what was so disappointing about the Matrix sequel:

...Alas, this film never lives up to its own imagination. It never delivers on Neo’s phone call that ended the last film:

NEO
“I know you're out there. I can feel you now.
I know that you're afraid... afraid of us.
You're afraid of change. I don't know the future.
I didn't come here to tell you how this
is going to end. I came here to tell how
it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this
phone, and then show these people what
you don't want them to see. I'm going to show
them a world without you. A world without
rules or controls, borders or boundaries.
A world where anything is possible. Where
we go from there is a choice I leave to you.”

Ok - What did you imagine he meant by that, when he suddenly dropped the phone and flew away? For me, it meant that Neo’s mind was open. That he was going to free others’ minds… Not just by giving them pills, but showing them that gravity wasn’t real. That there jobs were not real. That when they fell and broke a bone, that that wasn’t real. That there are no buildings, no food, no drinks and no clothes. That there were no laws that bound us mentally or politically. That the world of super-beings was in our grasp within the realm of the Matrix. That guns and weapons were useless, that punches and kicks were irrelevant, that once you could see the code you could unravel it and make it your servant rather than it your master. Neo was going to change it all.


Not really. Hell, turns out, Neo doesn’t even teach his best and closest souls how to unravel an agent. He doesn’t even open the minds of those closest to him, much less his own. He’s forgotten the lessons he learned in the last film. He still allows himself to enter into physical combat, though… doesn’t he know there is no blows, no punch, no fist or arm or body behind it?


My disappointment with THE MATRIX RELOADED isn’t that it is a bad movie, it isn’t. It’s good. Hell, there are times when it’s even pretty goddamn cool. However, at nearly every single choice the Wachowski’s made in this film, they chose to be pedestrian, repetitive and boring. The film suffers from being cute and selling itself short.

[Adam Wednesdays]

The forgotten Ridley Scott film is probably Matchstick Men.

Holy crap, you're right! Completely forgot that it existed. And I really liked that movie, too.

[Dave Wallace]

Yeah, they missed the boat on a lot of good ideas. Harry Knowles had an unusual bit of insight on what was so disappointing about the Matrix sequel:

Ultimately, I think this points out the major problem that the sequels had to contend with: when you've had your hero reach such a level of understanding and enlightenment in the first film that he can bend and manipulate reality at will, how do you put him in jeopardy? Having him say "Hmmm, upgrades" in the first five minutes of the sequel isn't enough, really: the whole point is that he's understood that the entire reality of the Matrix is built on an artifice that he can transcend. I don't know what kind of upgrades can defend against that, but I want some with my next Norton update.

It was a few years too early, they convinced themselves that the technology was ready and it wasn't.

As I understand it, the Scorpion King CGI at the end of The Mummy Returns was more a case of the animators being forced to meet an impossible deadline. The result was that the CGI for the climax of the entire movie was essentially left unfinished in the final movie. A shame.

The Burly Brawl? I personally loved it. I'd never seen anything like it before. I do see that it got a little flat before the end of the fight, but I was really excited the first time I saw it. It was really the first proper fight of the second movie, and it was 45 minutes in before it started so I was ready. They kept trying to upstage the fights one after the other. Clearly they thought Neo fighting just one guy wasn't enough, so have him fight hundreds. The bit where Smith says 'More' and dozens more guys arrive is super cool, and I liked how they made Neo adapt to fight hundreds instead of just a few. The Chateaux fight seemed smaller in comparison - beautifully shot but silly when Neo just took out 100 agents and can stop bullets with his mind. They really should have had him go all jedi in that fight.

After that we got a Superman fight. The Matrix movies did that right too - I remember seeing it and thinking 'for the first time, this is how you do a movie about superheroes'. Similarly the scene with Neo flying through the city and the wake of cars trailing behind him.

I agree, I was blown away by these scenes when I first saw them. Now, it's easy to see them for the empty filler that they are - especially given that they've been superceded by superior effects work in the intervening years - but at the time, it was incredibly exciting. Reloaded was one of the few films that I saw at the cinema more than once, and a big part of that was the sheer spectacle. (Well, that and the fact that I saw it in French the first time. If you think the Architect is unintelligible in English, try watching it in your second language. )

There were lots of other bad parts in the Matrix movies - Smith becoming human, Neo losing his sight and going to the machine city, and the underwhelming Mech fight (basically everything in Zion). Really the Zion reality should have been another Matrix, it's the only thing that made sense.

I think there's enough flexibility and ambiguity there for you to make the argument that it is another Matrix - kind of a 'spillover' Matrix. I certainly felt that was where they were going with it when I first saw Reloaded.

[Steve Sensible]

The burley brawl is great - right up until the moment the Agent Smiths start making skittle noises when Neo knocks a load of them down.

[Dave Wallace]

The burley brawl is great - right up until the moment the Agent Smiths start making skittle noises when Neo knocks a load of them down.

Now I really had forgotten about that.

[steveuk]

<SNIP>

As I understand it, the Scorpion King CGI at the end of The Mummy Returns was more a case of the animators being forced to meet an impossible deadline. The result was that the CGI for the climax of the entire movie was essentially left unfinished in the final movie. A shame.

<SNIP>

Undoubtedly true, but that's actually no different from almost every other big summer movie of the last twenty years. What hurt the creation of the VFX for 'The Mummy Returns' specifically was being required to create the first photoreal human being for a feature film; The Rock, as the upper half of the Scorpion King creature. The technology just wasn't there yet.

Arguably it still isn't. If the same thing were attempted today it would be a lot better, but would it work, or would the Scorpion King still be stuck in the uncanny valley?

EDIT:
VFX Schedules remain compressed, and get worse every year. The big summer movies like 'Bourne Legacy', 'Total Recall' and 'Dark Knight Rises' are still being worked on right now. It's crazy, but its how the system is built at the moment.

[Dave Wallace]

Undoubtedly true, but that's actually no different from almost every other big summer movie of the last twenty years. What hurt the creation of the VFX for 'The Mummy Returns' specifically was being required to create the first photoreal human being for a feature film; The Rock, as the upper half of the Scorpion King creature. The technology just wasn't there yet.

Arguably it still isn't. If the same thing were attempted today it would be a lot better, but would it work, or would the Scorpion King still be stuck in the uncanny valley?

I guess Arnie's appearance in Terminator: Salvation is pretty close to the same sort of idea. Which wasn't terrible - but even there, they kept the shots very short, and got rid of his face as soon as possible. Which suggests that they didn't have the confidence to include much of it, or for prolonged periods.

[The Lorcan Nagle]

The Burly Brawl? I personally loved it. I'd never seen anything like it before. I do see that it got a little flat before the end of the fight, but I was really excited the first time I saw it. It was really the first proper fight of the second movie, and it was 45 minutes in before it started so I was ready. They kept trying to upstage the fights one after the other. Clearly they thought Neo fighting just one guy wasn't enough, so have him fight hundreds. The bit where Smith says 'More' and dozens more guys arrive is super cool, and I liked how they made Neo adapt to fight hundreds instead of just a few.

I agree with pretty much all of this. What really disappointed me about the whole thing was there there's so many cool bits in the fight, but it just gets so boring by the end. And of course the bowling sound effects.

That said, the DVD shows just how amazing a technical achievement that whole sequence was. Not just in terms of CG, but choreographing a massive number of Hugo Weaving lookalikes.

The Chateaux fight seemed smaller in comparison - beautifully shot but silly when Neo just took out 100 agents and can stop bullets with his mind. They really should have had him go all jedi in that fight.

I far preferred the Chateau/car park/highway sequence. It was longer, but it was varied and didn't outstay its' welcome like the Burly Brawl.

After that we got a Superman fight. The Matrix movies did that right too - I remember seeing it and thinking 'for the first time, this is how you do a movie about superheroes'. Similarly the scene with Neo flying through the city and the wake of cars trailing behind him.

There were lots of other bad parts in the Matrix movies - Smith becoming human, Neo losing his sight and going to the machine city, and the underwhelming Mech fight (basically everything in Zion). Really the Zion reality should have been another Matrix, it's the only thing that made sense. It was kind of unsatisfying - yay we won the way against the machines but we still live in a cave under the earth eating gruel and wearing rags. Neo being a program as humans need a savior was an interesting plot point they didn't explore. They had this amazing sci-fi universe to explore and they came up short. But then the same can be said of Star Wars.

I wonder if there's a correlation between the relatively bleak endings of the Matrix trilogy and Battlestar Galactica - in both cases the humans are free of their machine oppressors, but are damned to a subsistence lifestyle.

[Johnny Henning]

That's primarily the con game the machines play. The idea that you will suffer if you give up all this luxury we offer. But humans are pretty resilient and the counter argument is that it forces people to find meaning, purpose and enjoyment in the companionship of other people than in the distractions of a comfortable life.

[The Lorcan Nagle]

I don't necessarily think that either story had a bad ending per se, but a lot of people do see the return to 'primitive' roots as a negative conclusion.

[Jim Ohara]

I'm sure in 150 years humans (well, cyborgs probably) will look back on pop culture of this time and remark on how many stories we had where we were afraid of the machines taking us over. Quite a large part of the sci-fi stories have been about a fear of the future and tech in some shape or form, and most of it comes off as needless paranoia. I guess a good reflection would be Tolkin fearing industrialization via LOTR, when industrialization in the most part has been a pretty good thing (and for those ready to move back to a pre-industrial age I hope you're looking forward to dying of the plague at 41).

[Chris D]

I'm sure in 150 years humans (well, cyborgs probably) will look back on pop culture of this time and remark on how many stories we had where we were afraid of the machines taking us over.

Unlikely! The machine will have definitely wiped us out by then.

[stephanie familiar]

not a movie i'd want to forget upon remembering, but the last station was pretty unmemorable.

[Mike Cooper]

I recently got a DVD/VHS player that can backup all my old tapes to disc, and have been digging through said tapes.

Strange Days was an awesome find - Ralph Fiennes acting like Woody Harrelson in a 1995-version of what LA might be like in the year 2000. I never knew before that James Cameron wrote it.
I highly recommend this for fans of psychedelic cyberpunk.

[Todd Gambrel]

As a child growing up my parents weren't really into movies. Thus we had like 3 or 4 VHS cassettes in the whole house. One of the was Solarbabies.

So I have a soft spot for that, and had forgotten about that movie until recently when I saw it at a garage sale. Had to buy it. Starred a young Jason Patric and Jami Gertz (Still Standing, Entourage)