25 replies to this topic

[Chic McGregor]

Any fans of Wallander, Stieg Larsson, The Killing (Sarah Lund), The Bridge (Saga Noren)?

Scandinavia seems to have nailed the crime genre just now.

Why? How? Will it last? Can it be done here?

[Johnny Henning]

Actually, Scandinavian authors have been pretty strong in the mystery crime genre for a while. Remember the Martin Beck novels? Wallander is basically Beck for a later era. Or Peter Hoeg, like Mankel, he's been popular for a few decades now.

Out of all of them, Larsson's popularity surprises me since the writing in the Girl novels is far less interesting than other writers from the far North.

[Chic McGregor]

I find the aspergic/autistic character of Saga Noren in the Bridge fascinating. It kind of takes the cold calculation of Sherlock Holmes and Poirot to a new level. Kind of like what Spock would have been like as a detective.

While not believing for a minute that someone so lacking in empathy could or should be a police person in reality, it does make you wonder if such a staff member might not have real advantages if only as a desk flier.

It is all the more remarkable a portrayal when you learn that in real life Sofia Helin is apparently emotionally driven, with two kids and married to a minister (religious).

In all the Scandinavian series I've seen, there is definitely an Ingmar Bergman legacy thing going on with the played down emotional reactions compared to English and American acting. It grows on you and after going back to an English series after watching Nordic Noir it looks like Jode Foster type overacting.

The gritty realism also contrasts with English crime series, however, our one crime series up here in Scotland, 'Taggartt' would not be out of place on Nordic Noir in that respect.

Edited by Chic McGregor, 19 May 2012 - 12:03 AM.

[Chic McGregor]

Johnny,
So what books would you recommend? We have all of Karin Fossum's books for which there is english translations.
Last episodes of The Bridge on TV in 15 minutes.

[Anders Espling]

Being Scandinavian (Swedish) I simply have to chime in.

I recommend the book Evil (Ondskan) by Jan Guillou. It's not in the crime-genre per se, but it's definitely something worth looking up. There's also a quite decent movie based on the book (which is far less... brutal, I'm afraid) that came out a few years back. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0338309/

That said, Jan Guillou is probably one of the worst writers I've ever read books from. Anything else he's written is (in my not too humble opinion) total s&%t. It's the way he writes, so matter-of-factly and "besserwisser" it really pisses me off. I like some of his character work in the books about Carl Hamilton, but take my advice - it's not worth it.

The books about Martin Beck, by Sjöwall & Wahlöö were mentioned, I recommend those too. Far better than the movies on Martin Beck that have come out in the 21st century... Really solid stuff. Especially "Terroristerna" (=The Terrorists, although I'm not sure that's the actual english title), the last book about Beck.

Thinking about it, I can come up with far more writers to stay away from than writers to look out for...

[Johnny Henning]

Lars Kepler is a new writer (at least new to me) who I enjoyed. I believe "he" may actually be yet another Swedish husband-wife writing team, though.

[Chic McGregor]

Thanks guys. Will check out the Ondskan movie, Lars Kepler and Martin Beck. I alreadsy checked Martin Beck om Amazon and it was more expensive to download the Kindle version (~£4.50) than order the paperback(@£2.20). Go figure.

[Chic McGregor]

Watched the last episodes in The Bridge. Think it is even better than The Killing, but no spoilers.
Picked up a book at a car boot today. 'The Inspector and Silence' by Hakan Nesser an Inspector Van Veeteren Mystery.

[Michael Stranger]

I think their success is down to the same formula Alan Moore applies:

"A good story is not enough," Adam Price says. "You need an ambition to tell us something about our time, how it is to live right now a Dane, a European... the great choices of life right now. You have to think big, but the story must also work on the smaller scale."

Camilla Hammerich further elucidates DR's philosophy. "We have to tell what Ingolf (Ingolf Gabold, the veteran head of DR drama) calls 'the double story'. It could be crime or family drama, but on top of that we have to tell something more about society, about ethics.


In fact it's what, in the context of the BBC, would be called Reithian – or at least the socially liberal offshoot of Reithianism that encouraged the flowering of Play for Today and a golden generation of writers in the 1970s and Eighties, but which was lost when market forces and political paranoia swept through the Corporation in the 1990s. And just as American cable channels have found success by giving primacy to the writer, DR champions what it calls 'One Vision'.

"One Vision means that you believe in the author and their vision of the story," says Morten Hesseldahl, "so they don't have to be manipulated by management or by directors, and I think that is what is going wrong in a lot of places. As far as I can understand from some of your creative people, they have recently become frustrated – there are too many people trying to have an opinion about what they are doing."

Excellent article about the shows here. I'd LOVE it if the BBC could apply the same level of trust in its creators as DR seem to.

[Chic McGregor]

We watched Ondskan, not a crime movie as such but definitely one which speaks volumes about who the real Neds are.

I think their success is down to the same formula Alan Moore applies:



Excellent article about the shows here. I'd LOVE it if the BBC could apply the same level of trust in its creators as DR seem to.

I think their success is down to the same formula Alan Moore applies:



Excellent article about the shows here. I'd LOVE it if the BBC could apply the same level of trust in its creators as DR seem to.

I think a lot of their success is owed to comic style writing, which is strange given the less than average comic culture in Scandinavia compared to central Southern Europe. (e.g.s 2000AD, Asterix, Tin Tin, Corto Maltese).

For example the beautifully written 'The Bridge'. Each scene is like a little entity on its own. It has a message and usually a punchline but overall adds to the grand story just like in comics. The staccato reality which comics bring has an advantage over continuous flow. People have a few seconds to fully get the meaning of the current scene portrayed before moving on which adds to a deeper following of the author's intent than a smooth flowing continuous movie would do. Movies and TV shows made like that are appreciated.

Of course there is more to it than that, you need a really great plot and a list of social messages to tick off, throw in some some Bergman like direction and you have the perfect recipe, like 'The Bridge'.

[Michael Stranger]

Finished watching it last night. They kind of threw off some of the shackles of realism as the plot gained speed towards the climax, but it was still excellent.

The guy playing Martin Rohde was such a naturalistic actor, was so impressed. There wasn't a dud in the show, really!

And yeah, the landscape shots were brilliantly composed.

[O.S. Georg]

You know, being a Dane myself, I must say I feel a little proud to see that so many Scandinavian shows and books are making it abroad!
If you feel like checking out something that’s very different from crime, I can also recommend ‘Riget’ (the Kingdom) it’s sort of like a Danish version of Twin Peaks (in a way). It’s weird, but pretty good if you ask me.

I'd LOVE it if the BBC could apply the same level of trust in its creators as DR seem to.

I don’t know if it’s just me being cynical, but I think one of the reasons DR is able to make such good stuff is because it’s publically funded (through a sort of tax), so they can basically do whatever they want, mostly free of commercial interests. I think that is a major factor, because if you look at most other channels or Hollywood, you have sponsors telling you what to do and what not to do, and stuff like this severely limits your artistic freedom.

Concerning the comics, I have no idea what’s going on with that! I think there might be Scandinavian writers out there, but they mostly publish their works through non-Scandinavian publishers, so they don’t make their presence felt. For some reason Comics aren’t very big in Denmark (and possibly the rest of Scandinavia) I think we only have like three of four comic book stores in all of Denmark! It’s just not very popular, so you don’t see a lot from us, if anything.

[Michael Stranger]

I think one of the reasons DR is able to make such good stuff is because it’s publically funded (through a sort of tax), so they can basically do whatever they want, mostly free of commercial interests.

The same thing should apply to the BBC, that's paid by a an annual TV licence so is publicly funded too, but their management have steered them into trying to compete with the private television companies and have basically dumbed things down to the lowest common denominator, to appeal to as many people as possible and making some pretty trashy programmes. In the 1970s there was a strong educational purpose to the BBC, which has fallen off to a large extent.

If you look at something like Tinker Tailer Soldier Spy (the original series with Alec Guinness), it's incredibly dense stuff which you have to play close attention to, even more than something like The Bridge. There's nothing like that any more, that I can think of. 'State Of Play' or maybe the recent 'The Shadow Line', but the latter doesn't compare to The Bridge or The Killing.

[O.S. Georg]

BBC's paid by a an annual TV licence so is publicly funded too,

Huh. I did not know that! Sorry for shooting my mouth, then!

Heck, I didn’t even know Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy had been a TV-series. Thanks for the info! It makes me want to check out that show.

[Michael Stranger]

It's very, very, good. One of the best shows I've ever seen, I think, alongside The Wire and I, Claudius. The sequel, Smiley's People, is even better.

Will check out The Kingdom - that's a little old now, isn't it? I remember that being shown on telly over here a while ago.

[O.S. Georg]

Yeah. I think it was early nineties or just about. It’s by Lars Von Trier, if you’ve heard of him. It was one of the first things he did and the possibly his most accessible work (possibly!)

[Michael Stranger]

Ah, ok. Yeah, heard a lot about Trier's films but managed to only see a few minutes of Dancer In The Dark so far. Will definitely check it out.

In the spirit of police based thrillers though, I also heartily recommend France's 'Spiral':



Not quite as good as 'The Killing' etc, but it's well written and tense stuff.

[O.S. Georg]

I found Dancer in the Dark to be a bit of a swing and a miss, except for the ending, but other than that I recommend him, even if he is a bit artsy and odd.

[stephanie familiar]

Any fans of Wallander, Stieg Larsson, The Killing (Sarah Lund), The Bridge (Saga Noren)?

Scandinavia seems to have nailed the crime genre just now.

Why? How? Will it last? Can it be done here?

i find larsson's writing awful. just awful. it's like a high school student wrote his books.

[Chic McGregor]

[quote name='O.S. Georg' timestamp='1337767938' post='2438705']
You know, being a Dane myself, I must say I feel a little proud to see that so many Scandinavian shows and books are making it abroad!
If you feel like checking out something that’s very different from crime, I can also recommend ‘Riget’ (the Kingdom) it’s sort of like a Danish version of Twin Peaks (in a way). It’s weird, but pretty good if you ask me.



I don’t know if it’s just me being cynical, but I think one of the reasons DR is able to make such good stuff is because it’s publically funded (through a sort of tax), so they can basically do whatever they want, mostly free of commercial interests. I think that is a major factor, because if you look at most other channels or Hollywood, you have sponsors telling you what to do and what not to do, and stuff like this severely limits your artistic freedom.

Concerning the comics, I have no idea what’s going on with that! I think there might be Scandinavian writers out there, but they mostly publish their works through non-Scandinavian publishers, so they don’t make their presence felt. For some reason Comics aren’t very big in Denmark (and possibly the rest of Scandinavia) I think we only have like three of four comic book stores in all of Denmark! It’s just not very popular, so you don’t see a lot from us, if anything.
[/quote]
[quote name='O.S. Georg' timestamp='1337767938' post='2438705']
You know, being a Dane myself, I must say I feel a little proud to see that so many Scandinavian shows and books are making it abroad!
If you feel like checking out something that’s very different from crime, I can also recommend ‘Riget’ (the Kingdom) it’s sort of like a Danish version of Twin Peaks (in a way). It’s weird, but pretty good if you ask me.



I don’t know if it’s just me being cynical, but I think one of the reasons DR is able to make such good stuff is because it’s publically funded (through a sort of tax), so they can basically do whatever they want, mostly free of commercial interests. I think that is a major factor, because if you look at most other channels or Hollywood, you have sponsors telling you what to do and what not to do, and stuff like this severely limits your artistic freedom.

Concerning the comics, I have no idea what’s going on with that! I think there might be Scandinavian writers out there, but they mostly publish their works through non-Scandinavian publishers, so they don’t make their presence felt. For some reason Comics aren’t very big in Denmark (and possibly the rest of Scandinavia) I think we only have like three of four comic book stores in all of Denmark! It’s just not very popular, so you don’t see a lot from us, if anything.
[/quote]

The BBC are funded by a kind of tax, and they should be able to experiment, but somehow they have become mega safe with countless repeated formulas they know work, antiques, cookery programs, quizzes. To be fair their new channels are getting back a bit to where they were once and should be.

The downside of government conduit for the funding and franchising is like the Demo that is happening this weekend in Glasgow outside the BBC because of the blatant anti-independence stance they take. We are having an independence referendum in a couple of years and the level of bias cannot go on. Democracy is at stake.

[quote name='Michael Stranger' timestamp='1337672242' post='2438384']
Finished watching it last night. They kind of threw off some of the shackles of realism as the plot gained speed towards the climax, but it was still excellent.

The guy playing Martin Rohde was such a naturalistic actor, was so impressed. There wasn't a dud in the show, really!

And yeah, the landscape shots were brilliantly composed.
[/quote]
[quote name='Michael Stranger' timestamp='1337672242' post='2438384']
Finished watching it last night. They kind of threw off some of the shackles of realism as the plot gained speed towards the climax, but it was still excellent.

The guy playing Martin Rohde was such a naturalistic actor, was so impressed. There wasn't a dud in the show, really!

And yeah, the landscape shots were brilliantly composed.
[/quote]
Thought the billionair's wife was a bit of a miscast, especially for the affair with Martin episode.

[quote name='Michael Stranger' timestamp='1337771402' post='2438715']
The same thing should apply to the BBC, that's paid by a an annual TV licence so is publicly funded too, but their management have steered them into trying to compete with the private television companies and have basically dumbed things down to the lowest common denominator, to appeal to as many people as possible and making some pretty trashy programmes. In the 1970s there was a strong educational purpose to the BBC, which has fallen off to a large extent.

If you look at something like Tinker Tailer Soldier Spy (the original series with Alec Guinness), it's incredibly dense stuff which you have to play close attention to, even more than something like The Bridge. There's nothing like that any more, that I can think of. 'State Of Play' or maybe the recent 'The Shadow Line', but the latter doesn't compare to The Bridge or The Killing.
[/quote]
[quote name='Michael Stranger' timestamp='1337771402' post='2438715']
The same thing should apply to the BBC, that's paid by a an annual TV licence so is publicly funded too, but their management have steered them into trying to compete with the private television companies and have basically dumbed things down to the lowest common denominator, to appeal to as many people as possible and making some pretty trashy programmes. In the 1970s there was a strong educational purpose to the BBC, which has fallen off to a large extent.

If you look at something like Tinker Tailer Soldier Spy (the original series with Alec Guinness), it's incredibly dense stuff which you have to play close attention to, even more than something like The Bridge. There's nothing like that any more, that I can think of. 'State Of Play' or maybe the recent 'The Shadow Line', but the latter doesn't compare to The Bridge or The Killing.
[/quote]
Kind of just said that too, but the newer more arty/intellectual channels look OK so far. But they may succumb to the ratimgs monster myth.

Channel 4 has been better at intellectual innovation over the years I think.

Radio 4 has a lot of really good stuff if you can ignore the Little Englader supremacy mythos stuff a lot of their padding exhibits.

[quote name='Michael Stranger' timestamp='1337774493' post='2438724']
Ah, ok. Yeah, heard a lot about Trier's films but managed to only see a few minutes of Dancer In The Dark so far. Will definitely check it out.

In the spirit of police based thrillers though, I also heartily recommend France's 'Spiral':

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.c...ed/-YQJ5CLJiCc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Not quite as good as 'The Killing' etc, but it's well written and tense stuff.
[/quote]
[quote name='Michael Stranger' timestamp='1337774493' post='2438724']
Ah, ok. Yeah, heard a lot about Trier's films but managed to only see a few minutes of Dancer In The Dark so far. Will definitely check it out.

In the spirit of police based thrillers though, I also heartily recommend France's 'Spiral':

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.c...ed/-YQJ5CLJiCc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Not quite as good as 'The Killing' etc, but it's well written and tense stuff.
[/quote]

Season 2 is a LOT better than Season one IMO.
It is worth watching though.

One annoying thing is the large shift in characters traits as the series progresses.

[quote name='stephanie familiar' timestamp='1337861729' post='2438972']
i find larsson's writing awful. just awful. it's like a high school student wrote his books.
[/quote]
[quote name='stephanie familiar' timestamp='1337861729' post='2438972']
i find larsson's writing awful. just awful. it's like a high school student wrote his books.
[/quote]
Haven't read him, but the film of Girl with the Dragon Tattoo was good. His name has popped up on book review shows, critics seem to like him. But that doesn't mean a lot sometimes.