189 replies to this topic

[Jim Ohara]

Soon as they had him act like a cunt towards Sansa he stopped being a human character.

[steveuk]

Why did you find that bit unbelievable?

[Jacowboy (Jonathan)]

I think that's definitely an element. Despite the presence of strong women Westeros doesn't seem that enlightened, you saw that in Jamie's reaction to Brienne this week. He's been emasculated, not only rejected by his father but told his little sister is a more worthy military commander. That's the main driver for his behaviour, he desperately needs to get his pride back.

Yeah, and since the begining of the show Theon's been one of the more mysoginistic characters (even when considering that the story is based on a time when women where treated much differently than today). In season one he was shown to be only interested in women for sex... even his sex scenes were kinda 'violent' in nature... completely devoid of emotion, except for the red-haired whore who rejected him and worsened his behaviour. Heck he tried to rape the wildling prisoner... then completely took advantage of the naive woman on the boat... then he started fingering a woman without even stopping to ask who she was, who turned out to be his sister... And then made a mistake of trusting the wrong woman in bed...

So yeah, I think his scorn for females is a huge factor in his actions, and that should be a big problem for him, because there ARE strong and intelligent women, despite being a somewhat retro-society.

But aside from that... Theon like most characters is a grey character... he's not just card-cut villain. I've said the same about Joffrey... they all got their own reasons and their own logic to their madness...

So far the only "good" characters are Ned and most of his family, and the only "bad" characters seem to be the white walkers and the more fantastic threats form beyond the wall. The rest of that world seems to be populated by morally grey characters that do both good and bad things to achieve their own personal goals.

So I don't think Theon is evil, or a villain... I really think he's a just a dumb kid who's gotten waaay in too deep into a situation he won't be able to handle.

If you look at the history books its fairly clear that many actions have been considered "bad" or even "evil" and that the people who carried them out were not well regarded by their peers at the time.

Theon's actions mark him as a villain in the context of Westeros too. He is leading a group of pirates (for want of a better term) and they're internal power structure is based on strength and violence, but in the larger world, although other people are often victims of that sort of behaviour, and they may accept it out of fear, they don't like, admire or respect it.

Theon uses the word "cruel" to describe his own actions. He knows what he's doing and he knows what it means.

This is very true... By choosing "blood", Theon knew that he was choosing the way of the Pirates, because that's what the Iron Islanders are... and let's remember that the pirate way is rape, pillage and murder... They are not good people, even in the context of the story or the people of Westeros... Pirates have always been the scum of the earth even if they can be painted as "nice goody jolly fellas" in some movies.

Theon's trying to play hardball and be a Pirate... the problem is, he doesn't have either the cojones, nor the experience to be one, even less lead them.

[Chris D]

Soon as they had him act like a cunt towards Sansa he stopped being a human character.

No, I'm pretty sure everyone hated that kid practically from the moment he showed up on screen. He's got a very punchable face and the actor has done a great job of utilizing that. He was clearly an obnoxious, awful kid from well before he started treating Sansa poorly. Sure, before his dad died he was mostly an obnoxious twit above all else, but he also had an innocent kid murdered because his pride got hurt. And he took much glee in that. He wasn't the full-blown monster he is now, but the signs were all there as to what kind of King he would be once he came into power.

[Christian U]

Soon as they had him act like a cunt towards Sansa he stopped being a human character.

From the first time we meet Joffrey, he's being a huge cunt without any reason. Long before Robert's death.


As for Theon, I think we can sympathise with his position - with his split loyalties, his father issues, his lack of alternatives - and still condemn him for taking the actions that he did. He could've kept out of the whole thing, and all he'd have needed to do was obey his father's actual orders. Not doing this but instead attacking the very people he just left with the firmest intention of supporting was not something that is in any way justifiable.

And, as Steve points out, Theon knows that, as well. You can see it in every moment he's on the screen. He didn't want things to go this badly - who knows what naive scenario he had painted in his head - and he doesn't like what he's doing, but he's in a one-way street now, and one he'll sooner or later realise can only lead to his demise. There'll be a reckoning when Robb comes for him, and he has no-one to blame but himself.

[steveuk]

The strength is definitely in its characters, and their complexity. They drive the plot and then plot drives them in turn.

Jim's right that they are many shades of grey but that doesn't mean that some shades are not lighter, or darker than others and Theon is definitely getting darker by the day.

And yes, as pointed out earlier; he knows it.

[Jim Ohara]

Why did you find that bit unbelievable?

I just thought it was over the top, Martin's trick to make the reader hate Joffery. I can't remember if Joffery ordered the butcher boy to be killed or not (the Dog did it), but he was basically covering up for himself much like Jamie was. He feared he wouldn't be taken seriously as a King if an 8 year old girl bested him (as Varys mentions Power is an illusion). Jamie is forgiven, or at least understood, over the course of the story. We know that if he didn't kill Bran his family would be destroyed, and one running theme is killing to protect your family. So we can understand why Joffery felt relief when the boy was killed and Lady was put down. But he never got the chance to have any redemption. Sansa loved him and he showered love and gifts on her, but we just think Sansa is an idiot, rather than seeing the other side of Joffery. Then they have him become sadistic and it's just silly. In a series of grey characters he's too black. Even Jamie, who murdered his own cousin just to try and escape is better thought of than poor old Joffery. I think I said last year Martin may as well have had him eat a puppy and kick a baby.

As for Theon, I think we can sympathise with his position - with his split loyalties, his father issues, his lack of alternatives - and still condemn him for taking the actions that he did. He could've kept out of the whole thing, and all he'd have needed to do was obey his father's actual orders. Not doing this but instead attacking the very people he just left with the firmest intention of supporting was not something that is in any way justifiable.

Ned Stark robbed him of his chance to be King of the Iron Islands. The prince came back 10 years later and his sister had taken over. It's enough justification to attack the Starks. Keeping out isn't an option in the Game of Thrones, and what he did is what the Iron Islands do. That's why we had the scene about paying the iron price. The iron price was taking Winterfell. Do that and he takes back the kingship that's rightly his.

[Jacowboy (Jonathan)]

I don't know about Jamie being so well thought of... He's VERY charismatic and witty, but he's a conniving asshole like most of the Lanisters and a lot of the characters... I've only see him do shitty things excpet for his very first scene in the show, when he is introduced along with Tyrion... That's the only scene in which he shows actualy humanity an we see that he really cares about his borther, when the rest of the world scorns him...

After that, he's pretty much been an asshole all the time... But again, a very charismatic and likeable asshole... so that's his "reediming" quality as a character for us the viewers... In the context of the story? Not so much... He is feared and respected as a skilled warrior... But beyond that, he IS the kingslayer, or to be more precise, he is the "traitor" and the man without honour, and that's who he'll always be. He'll never be King because of that. He'll never be loved and praised because of that.

So in the end, while we the audience might like Jamie, I don't think anyone except his family likes him at all in Westeros... and for good reason, he betrayed his sacred vows and forever lost his honour as a man in public. That and all the shit he's pulled in private...

[Chris D]

Sansa loved him and he showered love and gifts on her, but we just think Sansa is an idiot, rather than seeing the other side of Joffery.

I never thought Sansa was an idiot. Just a girl in love with the idea of being a princess and a queen. Like countless other girls. And that blinded her from seeing Joffrey as he truly was, a spoiled brat with sadistic tendencies that were only really kept in check by the fact that he wasn't yet King. Even in this last episode Cersi basically admits that only a mother could love him. Can't we just admit that some people are just terrible and move on. There are plenty of other characters with lots of depth. We can have one that just an unrepentant piece of crap.

and for good reason, he betrayed his sacred vows and forever lost his honour as a man in public.

It's still something I'll never fully buy into with regards to Jamie. Yes the kingsguard vows are considered more sacred than most others, but as Jamie pointed out this last episode, there are an endless amount of vows a man is expect to abide by, yet sometimes they clash. Then what do you do? You make a choice. That's really all Jamie did. It was no different from what Robert or Ned did. And Jamie was still practically a boy when he took his vows and became a member of the kingsguard. The guy is certainly an asshole, but I'll never understand the contempt he gets as "kingslayer" because that king was worse than Joffrey.

[steveuk]

I like that we can see the motivations of the characters, we can see their side of things.

That's not the same as agreeing with them though. Their motivations don't always excuse their actions. They don't make them any less bad.

I can understand why Jaimie, Cersei, Theon and many others have made the choices that they have but they are still the wrong choices and those characters are still bad people for making those choices.

I can still call those people bad, evil and even monsterous, because that's what they are. That's what those choices show them to be.

[Ogul]

There is no justification for Jamie. He cannot claim "family" as a defense, he's just a sociopath, pure and simple. He enjoys violence, he has no moral qualms, he's a monster. He's not especially a sadist, like Joffrey is, but neither is he conflicted or gray in any sense, he is evil.

Theon is not a sociopath, he clearly knows right from wrong (at least as relates to violence, it's unclear as to whether he knows the same when it comes to sex), and yet he continues to do what he knows is wrong. His actions are not defined by unreasoned malice, but by weakness, that's his sin. A stronger man would have stood up against the Greyjoys on any number of occasions, and have prevented the various bad steps he has taken, but Theon is not a strong man, and therefore he is where he is. That does not mean that we should absolve him of any of his bad choices, none of them were necessary.

[Mike]

One of Martin's themes is how people can change when confronted with their actions. Is anyone on the programme irredeemable at the moment?

[steveuk]

Unforgivable maybe.

Despite his age it would be hard to forgive Joffrey. I don't think the Mountain is on course for redemption, but his brother has a spark in there, his treatment of Sansa suggests a path for him.

Jaime would need a hell of an epiphany, but I suppose he might earn a second chance.

Some wont change though, at least as far as I can see. Tywin wont, and neither will Theon.

Unless Martin wants to surprise us? I'm open to the possibility but I can't see an obvious, or even a possible, path for many people.

[Jim Ohara]

One of Martin's themes is how people can change when confronted with their actions. Is anyone on the programme irredeemable at the moment?

I think anyone can be written with a path of redemption - human nature makes us quite willing to forgive if repentance is truly there. This conversation gets a little awkward as the books future plots give more depth to some of the characters - storylines that won't be touched on for years on the TV show.

I will say that after the first episode I thought I'd never forgive Jamie - that what he did was one of the most awful things I'd ever seen. Since reading all the books though....

[Chris D]

Having read most of the books does make discussing certain things in here pretty tricky. But, no doubt, the books have colored my views on certain characters due to events not yet seen on TV.

[Jacowboy (Jonathan)]

I never thought Sansa was an idiot. Just a girl in love with the idea of being a princess and a queen. Like countless other girls. And that blinded her from seeing Joffrey as he truly was, a spoiled brat with sadistic tendencies that were only really kept in check by the fact that he wasn't yet King. Even in this last episode Cersi basically admits that only a mother could love him. Can't we just admit that some people are just terrible and move on. There are plenty of other characters with lots of depth. We can have one that just an unrepentant piece of crap.



It's still something I'll never fully buy into with regards to Jamie. Yes the kingsguard vows are considered more sacred than most others, but as Jamie pointed out this last episode, there are an endless amount of vows a man is expect to abide by, yet sometimes they clash. Then what do you do? You make a choice. That's really all Jamie did. It was no different from what Robert or Ned did. And Jamie was still practically a boy when he took his vows and became a member of the kingsguard. The guy is certainly an asshole, but I'll never understand the contempt he gets as "kingslayer" because that king was worse than Joffrey.

Well, it does matter for the population at least... for the fame of the characters amongst the citizens and what they think of their rulers... I don't think any of the Lords or political douchebags would think badly about Jamie betraying the Mad King... They all realize someone had to do it... But that doesn't mean they're gonna trust him very much either.

However that's only the "public" side of Jamie... The private part is that he's a guy who commits incest willingly and repeatedly, even when that might put at risk all of his family's work to get to the throne... He also has no qualms about killing a little boy, son of an important ruler. And in the show at least, he didn't even blink when killing a cousin to have a chance at escaping...

So I see him as being EXTREMELY reckless and trigger-happy, but no necessarily because he's evil... it's more of a violent pragmatism, as opposed to Tyrion's diplomatic pragmatism or Tywin's cynical pragmatism. In general the three of them, Cersei, Jamie and Tyrion seem to loooove doing reckless stuff and living dangerously in their own personal ways... proabably a way to rebel against their more strict father.

[The Lorcan Nagle]

How is what Theon did any different from what Robb Stark did? Both had their family members die, both raised an army and both are killing and fighting their way to revenge.

Robb's father and one of his sisters (both as far he knows) were kidnapped, and he was ordered to come to King's Landing and bend the knee to Joffrey - a journey which, as Catelyn astutely observed would likely end in his capture or death. At that point he had three choices: Do as the Lannisters ordered and give them an unprecedented level of control over the North, which would further shift the balance of power in Westeros; Sit in Winterfell and wait for the Lannisters to come for him; or take the battle to them.

And before Robb did anything more than call his Banners, the Lannisters killed his father. If he hadn't captured Jamie SAnsa would likely be dead by now as well. And again: If he didn't attack the Lannisters they would have attacked him, and sacked the countyside as they went.

By comparison Theon has betrayed a family who loved him as their own, executed a man who was a father figure to him, and murdered two children in cold blood. Those are his personal actions or ones he ordered directly. While I'm sure Robb's war has seen innocent people injured or killed, at least he didn't order those deaths.

[craggy]

While I'm sure Robb's war has seen innocent people injured or killed, at least he didn't order those deaths.

well...he sent those 2thousand blokes off to get slaughtered by the Lannisters so he could sneak around and capture Jamie, didn't he? and every time he says "attack!" he's sending those guys off to potentially die. It's very much not the same, but Robb certainly has blood on his hands, just like every one of those grand high muck a mucks. The average farmer in Westeros probably wouldn't notice much difference if it was a Stark or a Baratheon or a Lannister on the Iron Throne.

[The Lorcan Nagle]

There's a huge difference between ordering soldiers (even if they're levies) into battle and murdering children though.

[Sarah Horrocks]

I just thought it was over the top, Martin's trick to make the reader hate Joffery. I can't remember if Joffery ordered the butcher boy to be killed or not (the Dog did it), but he was basically covering up for himself much like Jamie was. He feared he wouldn't be taken seriously as a King if an 8 year old girl bested him (as Varys mentions Power is an illusion). Jamie is forgiven, or at least understood, over the course of the story. We know that if he didn't kill Bran his family would be destroyed, and one running theme is killing to protect your family. So we can understand why Joffery felt relief when the boy was killed and Lady was put down. But he never got the chance to have any redemption. Sansa loved him and he showered love and gifts on her, but we just think Sansa is an idiot, rather than seeing the other side of Joffery. Then they have him become sadistic and it's just silly. In a series of grey characters he's too black. Even Jamie, who murdered his own cousin just to try and escape is better thought of than poor old Joffery. I think I said last year Martin may as well have had him eat a puppy and kick a baby.

Joffrey is just a sadistic monster. He's not right in the head. There are people like that in the world. Sometimes they come to power and do terrible things. What he did to Sansa pails in comparison to what he did to the prostitutes that Tyrion sent to Joffrey. We're meant to see from his interactions with Arya and the Butcher boy, which he initiates, that he's not a gray character, he's a black character. He's messed up in the head.