69 replies to this topic

[steveuk]

Overtly, yes.

Covertly, I'm sure there are other angling for ultimate power.

[Ogul]

I put Tyrion to win, because he cares about people (to a point) and yet is savy enough to make it work without wading through blood to get there. My heart said Arya, but (at least on the show) she's far too inexperienced and prone to panic and violence, but she has a lot of potential.

I voted Jamie against, because he's a total asshat that would ruin the kingdom, but Theon's little better (he's weak, but I think he'd be a lot less of a jerk than he's been lately if he had a more secure powerbase), and Dany would be a disaster too (but again, she at least has a heart, so long as it doesn't get in the way of her ambitions).

Aren't we actually down to just two people really fighting for the throne now, by the way? Robb isn't interested, Renley's dead, so the situation is basically just Joffrey sitting on the throne and Stannis coming to take it away from him.

Keeping in mind that situations may force someone else to take the throne if only to prevent someone worse from taking it instead. . .

[Christian U]

Overtly, yes.

Covertly, I'm sure there are other angling for ultimate power.

None of the ones in the list to vote for, though. The Starks don't want it, the Lannisters will work with Joffrey, Varys and Littlefinger don't want that overt kind of power... I do wonder about the Tyrells. Margaery definitely wanted to be Queen, and that's not just a personal ambition, I suspect, but that of her house. They might yet decide to back someone else.

[steveuk]

Littlefinger does. Varys teased him about it in the first season.

I can see him making a hell of a Borgia or a Medici.

[lj cunningham]

Arya is my favorite character by far, but she isn't built to rule nor does she desire to want any part of it. She simply wants to be a warrior and, at this point, get revenge for her father and family.

One name not on the list which I would have actually chosen is Bran. He's been ruling Winterfell with the help of Maester Luwin and Ser Rodrick, but he's been making very sound and well reasoned decisions on his own. He cares about the people, has a strong sense of fairness, and is well grounded. He definitely has the aptitude and character to lead and lead well, imho.

Given Bran's absence from the list, I voted for Jon because of his potential to learn on the job and grow into a position of leadership. But I could see either Tyrion or Arya being a good hand for the future King/Queen. Tyrion might be a good King, but I do think he's better suited behind the scenes.

Edited by lj cunningham, 14 May 2012 - 02:39 PM.

[Chris D]

Bran could be a solid choice. I don't think Tryion would make a good king simply because of his image. People think he's an ugly little monster. Seems like it would be hard for him to overcome that, no matter how smart and good he might be.

[Mike]

What do the Seven Kingdoms actually gain by there being someone on the Iron Throne?

[steveuk]

At the moment, not much. In theory they gain the same thing as any other group, cooperative, collective or team.

But as I say, at the moment, not so much.

[Sarah Horrocks]

I picked Renly for the King I would want. He seemed like a very generous king, and with his relationship with the high gardens his power would have been suffiencient to hold the piece. Plus he would have allowed Robb to stay King of the North.

Also he showed with Brienne that he's very progressive about women's rights and roles in society.

This poll should have a Queen option as well.

For worst rule I picked Theon. He's the type of guy who is too weak to be ruler, and would end up accidentally doing a lot of really terrible things just because of his poor judgement and weakness.

Also I think Dannerys would make a good ruler.

Edited by Sarah Velez, 15 May 2012 - 12:13 AM.

[Christian U]

What do the Seven Kingdoms actually gain by there being someone on the Iron Throne?

Stability. I'm talking out of my ass here, not being a historian or anything, but I think having a larger territory that remains stable - which usually means one king instead of a lot of lords who are having border skirmishes all the time - is the first step to civilisation.

[Jim Ohara]

Yeah, stability and protection, and the environment for economic and social development (albeit for a select few). Without a strong King you have endless war, famine and suffering. Plus you can organize against common outside foes (like 100,00 Dothraki horse warriors or a legion of white walkers).

Interesting that Arya is doing so well. Perhaps she as enough of a bastard in her to rule. Maybe that's why she and Tywin are getting along so famously in the TV show. Imagine if she'd been promised to Joffery instead of Sansa.

[Chris D]

Interesting that Arya is doing so well. Perhaps she as enough of a bastard in her to rule. Maybe that's why she and Tywin are getting along so famously in the TV show. Imagine if she'd been promised to Joffery instead of Sansa.

She clearly would have killed him after he had Ned killed. Then she'd most likely also be dead right now. But it still probably would have been awesome. At least Tyrion is around to occasionally slap the crap out of Joffrey.

[Ogul]

Yeah, stability and protection, and the environment for economic and social development (albeit for a select few). Without a strong King you have endless war, famine and suffering. Plus you can organize against common outside foes (like 100,00 Dothraki horse warriors or a legion of white walkers).

In theory, but then the last three rulers were an inbred sociopath, a drunken waste of space, and an inbred sociopath, take your pick on the ordering.

She clearly would have killed him after he had Ned killed. Then she'd most likely also be dead right now.

Yeah, one of them would be dead by now, the choice of which would depend on how calm Arya would be. There's a decent chance she would just flip out and charge him, in which case she'd likely die, but if she could fight hat urge down, which would also be an in-character option, then she could definitely have pulled it off in the right time and place, and perhaps even get away with it.

Btw, I just started on the first book, and it's shocking to note the supposed ages of these characters. Everyone involved, even Eddard, seem to have been aged by 5-10 years minimum for the show (in appearance at least, even if they pay lipservice to the idea that they're still their "official" ages. It's like 90210 to the max.

[Ricardo_C]

I picked Tywin as the best for the Kingdom because I think Westeros needs a smart tough bastard in charge, and his only crime that I can see was denying Tyrion from marrying an unsuitable girl.

His way of stopping Tyrion's adolescent marriage was to have his men gang-rape the girl, force Tyrion to watch, and then make him f#$% her last, to show them what happens to those who have desires above their station. That, plus the way in which he handled Elia Targaryen and her children (giving them to Gregor Clegane of all people), means he'd be way more of a "tough bastard" than anyone could possibly need. He's somewhat kind to Arya because he sees no way in which she could possibly be a threat to him, but he would let Gregor rape and kill her if he saw any advantage in it. He's a pragmatist, but also thoroughly amoral.

I chose Tyrion as the best leader. Skillful enough at courtly intrigue, but moral enough to try to keep the common good in mind when making decisions. He wouldn't be perfect, but there might actually be progress and prosperity with his brains leading the Seven Kingdoms. I'd much rather see him as lord of Casterly Rock, though, enjoying a well-earned opulent retirement. Leave the backstabbing games to others.

Worst? Theon, by a country mile. Led around by his dick by women, and by his balls by his men. He's a pathetic puppy, always trying to placate his daddy issues by submitting to the will of any moderately strong figure in his life.

Edited by Ricardo_C, 15 May 2012 - 06:09 PM.

[garjones]

Interesting that Arya is doing so well. Perhaps she as enough of a bastard in her to rule. Maybe that's why she and Tywin are getting along so famously in the TV show. Imagine if she'd been promised to Joffery instead of Sansa.

I've not read the books, or rather I am deliberately reading them after the show rather than before, it was about 2 episodes in I saw Arya being a special character, she had the good morals and plenty of spunk to back it up. She could get offed in the next episode as is the Game of Thrones style but there always seemed a special destiny for her. Yes she's too young but who knows what jumps in time they may use.

It also helps that Maisie Williams is a fantastic actress, she's a kid stood there sharing scenes as an equal with Charles Dance! They've probably had one or two scenes more than is necessary for those characters but they are so damn watchable you can't blame them.

[Jim Ohara]

I chose Tyrion as the best leader. Skillful enough at courtly intrigue, but moral enough to try to keep the common good in mind when making decisions. He wouldn't be perfect, but there might actually be progress and prosperity with his brains leading the Seven Kingdoms. I'd much rather see him as lord of Casterly Rock, though, enjoying a well-earned opulent retirement. Leave the backstabbing games to others.

I can't see the people rallying behind King Half-Man (or King Bastard for that manner in the case of Jon). Their society is built around houses and breeding - I think they expect physical excellence of their royal family as much as anything else. Remember, Tyrion is currently part of the royal court and the people hate him - they mock him in the street and throw dug at him (and his family). I don't see how he'd last long on the throne, or how he'd keep the subjects in order.

Part of the grim reality is that the environment often dictates the king - a hard country needs an iron fist more than it needs a clever mind. It did very well when they had dragons handy, ready to burn alive anyone who stepped out of line.

I think where Tyrion is concerned Tywin is a tad irrational. He's not a regular supporter of rape, but he was tired of Tyrion arsing around as a boy and annoyed at the betrayal of him marrying in secret. Yes what he did was horrific, but it's a brutal age, and I'm sure he wanted to shock some sense into Tyrion and make sure he'd never ask for Tasha again. It seems that his plot worked as it clearly made Tyrion terrified of his father ever since (even though he behaves badly still, he's not as overt). As for the Targaryans, he knew to kill the bloodline for the good of the country. Look what's coming from Quarth because they didn't do a good enough job. Sending the Mountain was the right move, same as Jamie killing the King was the right move. Everyone hates the Lannisters, but they do the hard things that need to be done.

[Ricardo_C]

Sending Elia back to Dorne in exhange for her abdication, and fostering Rhaenys, Aegon, and Viserys in the Vale, Winterfell, and Dragonstone, while building a narrative centered around how Aerys had gone mad and HAD to be overthrown might have kept the peace just as well. After all, Dorne, arguably the biggest military power in Westeros, has so far opted against open rebellion. Elia would have birthed Daenerys in Dorne, but her remaining children being hostages to the King and his two most trusted bannermen (Ned and Jon Arryn) would have kept them acquiescent, all the more if Robert gave them Jaime Lannister, the one who actually killed Aerys. Robert killed Rhaegar in single combat, which in Westeros tends to be seen as more "honorable" than assassination.

I'm probably too far in camp Stark to appreciate Tywin's handling of power, but I do believe an honorable exit might have been achieved. Looking to real-world parallels: Following the Restoration, all rebels were pardoned, except the actual regicides. Robert would have been seen as a rebel who slew the crown prince in the field of battle, but only Jaime would have been regarded as a traitor who committed the ultimate crime against the crown. With the Kingslayer delivered to Dorne, Elia and her children get a measure of justice, Sunspear gets behind Robert, and the Lannisters become expendable.

[steveuk]

I can't see the people rallying behind King Half-Man (or King Bastard for that manner in the case of Jon). Their society is built around houses and breeding - I think they expect physical excellence of their royal family as much as anything else. Remember, Tyrion is currently part of the royal court and the people hate him - they mock him in the street and throw dug at him (and his family). I don't see how he'd last long on the throne, or how he'd keep the subjects in order.

There have been disabled rulers in the past, in the real world. The reality of having an aristocracy is that you can't simply reject them when you feel like it.

You either put up with them, whatever they are like, or you rebel, and risk your life to get rid of them.

Part of the grim reality is that the environment often dictates the king - a hard country needs an iron fist more than it needs a clever mind. It did very well when they had dragons handy, ready to burn alive anyone who stepped out of line.

I think where Tyrion is concerned Tywin is a tad irrational. He's not a regular supporter of rape, but he was tired of Tyrion arsing around as a boy and annoyed at the betrayal of him marrying in secret. Yes what he did was horrific, but it's a brutal age, and I'm sure he wanted to shock some sense into Tyrion and make sure he'd never ask for Tasha again. It seems that his plot worked as it clearly made Tyrion terrified of his father ever since (even though he behaves badly still, he's not as overt). As for the Targaryans, he knew to kill the bloodline for the good of the country. Look what's coming from Quarth because they didn't do a good enough job. Sending the Mountain was the right move, same as Jamie killing the King was the right move. Everyone hates the Lannisters, but they do the hard things that need to be done.

I think you have a serious pair of rose-tinted glasses where Tywin is concerned. Just this week he's hanging his own men by the dozen and criticizing the Mountain for going soft, sending him out to burn the surrounding villages.

He's a monster.

[Jim Ohara]

I think you have a serious pair of rose-tinted glasses where Tywin is concerned. Just this week he's hanging his own men by the dozen and criticizing the Mountain for going soft, sending him out to burn the surrounding villages.

He's a monster.

Was Churchill a monster for bombing Germany?

Sending Elia back to Dorne in exhange for her abdication, and fostering Rhaenys, Aegon, and Viserys in the Vale, Winterfell, and Dragonstone, while building a narrative centered around how Aerys had gone mad and HAD to be overthrown might have kept the peace just as well. After all, Dorne, arguably the biggest military power in Westeros, has so far opted against open rebellion. Elia would have birthed Daenerys in Dorne, but her remaining children being hostages to the King and his two most trusted bannermen (Ned and Jon Arryn) would have kept them acquiescent, all the more if Robert gave them Jaime Lannister, the one who actually killed Aerys. Robert killed Rhaegar in single combat, which in Westeros tends to be seen as more "honorable" than assassination.

i think the story of Theon Grayjoy is an example of what could have happened if they'd kept the Targaryens alive. Even with a caring loving environment, even with a man he considered a brother, it took all of 5 seconds for Theon to go on the attack. Or to put it another way, do you think Arya could ever make peace with the Lannisters?

[Ricardo_C]

Which just highlights Robb's stupidity in sending Theon back to Balon, especially when his own back is turned, martially speaking. Ned wouldn't have done it.

Spoiler

In ADWD, when Jaime accepts Edmure's surrender, he offers him a comfortable stay in Casterly Rock as a hostage, even bringing his wife and child along, but there's no talk of him ever being released from it.

I agree, Arya would never make peace with the Lannisters, which is part of what makes her unfit to rule.