179 replies to this topic

[Jacowboy (Jonathan)]

I read they spend $10 million an episode. Hence why there's only 10 episodes. I'm not sure they get a better return on their investment if there's 12 or 13 instead.

This series is making me appreciate the Theon story line all the more. In some ways he's justified in his thoughts, in some ways he's doing what he should do and often what he has to do. He's not really made any wrong decisions. But it's leading to disaster by the looks of things, and he just can't stop it. Part of him must kind of know it. Of all the characters I think he's the one I'm most interested in seeing how Martin resolves things. And yet when I first watched the show I barely even noticed him.

Actually I think he's made EVERY bad decision he could've made at each juncture since he left Rob's camp... And he knows it, but he can't stop it anymore, his only option is keep on getting deeper in shit and hope none'll notice

[Ogul]

Actually I think he's made EVERY bad decision he could've made at each juncture since he left Rob's camp... And he knows it, but he can't stop it anymore, his only option is keep on getting deeper in shit and hope none'll notice

Yeah, Theon was weak, there was no justification for his choices. The moment that his father turned on the Starks he should have hopped a ship back to the mainland.

[Jacowboy (Jonathan)]

Yeah, Theon was weak, there was no justification for his choices. The moment that his father turned on the Starks he should have hopped a ship back to the mainland.

Not only that... He began by fingering his sister jsut cause he couldn't keep it in his pants... Then he didn't stood up to his dad's bad mood, then he decided to betray the Stark's alligeance against all logic, then he decided to disregard his dad's orders, then he decided to take Winterfell with only a handful of men, from a crippled boy... thus completely fucking up any kind of surprise element the Greyjoys might've had (and ensuring that they will lose it shortly to someone else), and to top it all, he let the Stark kids and their two servants slip through his fingers.

The guy has not made a single good desicion since he left the Starks...

[craggy]

he didn't know she was his sister at the time. but she knew he was her brother.

of course, jonathan is right:

Actually I think he's made EVERY bad decision he could've made at each juncture since he left Rob's camp... And he knows it, but he can't stop it anymore, his only option is keep on getting deeper in shit and hope none'll notice

[Jacowboy (Jonathan)]

he didn't know she was his sister at the time. but she knew he was her brother.

Well I don't know about any of you, but I usually try to catch a woman's name before I start fingering her

I mean... seriously, he didn't know... but come on

[Jim Ohara]

Jacowboy, you're such a gentleman.

Theon faced the decision of staying loyal to his birth father or the man who killed his brothers and uncle, took the crown away from his father and held him hostage under threat of death if his Dad ever acted up. Theon stuck by blood. It'd be like expecting Sansa to live with the Lannisters for 10 years and then go to war with the Starks. She'd be hated. But Theon is hated because he crossed the lovely Stark family.

[Ricardo_C]

Theon is hated because he crossed not the man who held him hostage, but the boy he grew up with, and who regarded him as a brother. Not happy with that, he captured his foster brother's home, slaughtered many of the people who'd served him all his life, and then killed two innocent children to better paint himself in the eyes of a father who hated him for growing up Stark, regardless of the fact that it was Balon's own actions that led to Theon being taken from him.

Theon choosing blood is not why he's despised. He's despised because at every turn, he chose the cruelest, most underhanded course of action.

Edited by Ricardo_C, 16 May 2012 - 02:12 AM.

[Jacowboy (Jonathan)]

Jacowboy, you're such a gentleman.

Theon faced the decision of staying loyal to his birth father or the man who killed his brothers and uncle, took the crown away from his father and held him hostage under threat of death if his Dad ever acted up. Theon stuck by blood. It'd be like expecting Sansa to live with the Lannisters for 10 years and then go to war with the Starks. She'd be hated. But Theon is hated because he crossed the lovely Stark family.

Nah, it's really not comparable to Sanza's situation at all. First of all Sanza is just treated like crap, and let's face it, the lannisters are a bunch of assholes. The Starks have been portrayed as the "too good for their own good" clan of this story.

And there's evidence that Theon was actually treated well and with respect and raised as well as possible considering he wasn't a proper Stark... I think he was as nurtured as Jon Snow, even more because Catilin had no reason to hate Theon, contrarily to Snow... Heck, they could've shoved Theon in the Kitchens or make him a servant, but we saw him hanging around with Rob, the Stark heir, as much as any of his siblings... And if you're still not convinced he was treated more than fairly, just consider that despite the fact that he's a "political prisoner" for all intents and purposes, the heir of an enemy of the Starks, he was still allowed to carry a sword in the presence of the Stark family... How's that for trust and respect?

Edit: Also, while Ned Stark did kill his family, and siding with his father would seem normal, let's remember that 1) It was Theon's father who started the revolt, and it was Ned who won... simple. And 2) apparently Theon's dad never bothered to try and get his son back from the Starks... He just chose to make his daughter heir to the Iron Islands... So why would he choose nature instead of nurture?

The bottom line is, Theon is just a reckless dumbass with daddy-issues (and he has been since season 1 when he recklessly shot the wildling holding Bran... Actually got a lot of flack from Rob for that one), but it sure is fun to watch him self-destroy.

Edited by Jacowboy (Jonathan), 16 May 2012 - 02:32 AM.

[Chris D]

2) apparently Theon's dad never bothered to try and get his son back from the Starks...

To be fair, how was he to do that? If he'd tried to attack the North to get his son back previously, the entire 7 Kingdoms would have smacked him down yet again. Probably killing the entire Greyjoy family this time around. Only so many rebellions you're going to tolerate from one family.

Basically Theon has made mostly the right choices for an Iron Islander, the problem is that the Iron people are far too brutal for any remotely civilized society to put up with. So they might have their fun while full blown war is going on, but once the 7 Kingdoms are back to more peaceful times, the people of Pyke will get their asses kicked right back to the sea.

[Ogul]

Theon faced the decision of staying loyal to his birth father or the man who killed his brothers and uncle, took the crown away from his father and held him hostage under threat of death if his Dad ever acted up. Theon stuck by blood. It'd be like expecting Sansa to live with the Lannisters for 10 years and then go to war with the Starks. She'd be hated. But Theon is hated because he crossed the lovely Stark family.

But the Starks are very nice, while the Lannisters and Greyjoys are assholes. Sticking by blood is no excuse for doing the wrong things. Most of the most horrible things that go on in GoT are "acceptable" if "because my family says so" can justify an action.

[Jacowboy (Jonathan)]

To be fair, how was he to do that? If he'd tried to attack the North to get his son back previously, the entire 7 Kingdoms would have smacked him down yet again. Probably killing the entire Greyjoy family this time around. Only so many rebellions you're going to tolerate from one family.

Basically Theon has made mostly the right choices for an Iron Islander, the problem is that the Iron people are far too brutal for any remotely civilized society to put up with. So they might have their fun while full blown war is going on, but once the 7 Kingdoms are back to more peaceful times, the people of Pyke will get their asses kicked right back to the sea.

Well seeing as Theon had lots of freedom of movement AND was allowed to be armed, I can think of some ways to achieve that with different results =P

But I don't agree with you that he has made the right choices for an Iron Islander... I mean how would he know what an Iron Islander behaves like? He's lived all his life as a Stark... Instead he's trying and failing miserably to behave like what he imagines an Iron Islander would be like... I stand by my opinion that he's really not good or prepared to rule anything at all...

I'll however revise my "daddy-issues" claim, because I think it might be more a problem because he's pretty mysoginistic, and I think it might actually be the fact that his dad favored his little sister that drove him to betray the Starks and do all the dumb mistakes he's doing... To prove to his dad that he's superior to a woman.

Edited by Jacowboy (Jonathan), 16 May 2012 - 05:27 AM.

[garjones]

I'll however revise my "daddy-issues" claim, because I think it might be more a problem because he's pretty mysoginistic, and I think it might actually be the fact that his dad favored his little sister that drove him to betray the Starks and do all the dumb mistakes he's doing... To prove to his dad that he's superior to a woman.

I think that's definitely an element. Despite the presence of strong women Westeros doesn't seem that enlightened, you saw that in Jamie's reaction to Brienne this week. He's been emasculated, not only rejected by his father but told his little sister is a more worthy military commander. That's the main driver for his behaviour, he desperately needs to get his pride back.

[AlexMendoza]

Yay me!! I finally got my head around all the names and places in this show, having never read the books and not really had an interest in the show at the start. I only watched it to see what the fuss was all about and my friends would not shut up about it. Love the show now. Favourite arc from the last couple of eps has to be Sansa. Im very curious to see where she'll go next. I have a feeling that the Dog will eventually become her gueard and either he or she will be the ones to take out Joffrey. I also have a feeling that with the other ladies gunning for the iron throne, I suspect Sansa may end up the winner here. I could be way off here but its fun to speculate.

Oh yeah and Tyrion. Have loved Peter Dinklage for ages now, even way before GOT, he's really dominated the screen whenever he's on it.

[Jason Hendriks]

Jacowboy, you're such a gentleman.

Theon faced the decision of staying loyal to his birth father or the man who killed his brothers and uncle, took the crown away from his father and held him hostage under threat of death if his Dad ever acted up. Theon stuck by blood. It'd be like expecting Sansa to live with the Lannisters for 10 years and then go to war with the Starks. She'd be hated. But Theon is hated because he crossed the lovely Stark family.

It's fairly easy for us to judge Theon's actions from our industrialized, post-enlightenment twenty-first century perspective, but these people live a brutal world with a very different value system. Here, your name and family define who you are. Of course, we would cheer Theon if he told his father to stick it, but that's not something that could realistically happen.

And, I have no doubt that if Balon Greyjoy or Yara Greyjoy had marched into Winterfell, they would have executed Bran and Rickon immediately. This is war... they're not playing nice and they're playing for keeps.

As for your analogy with Sansa, I have no doubt that the Starks treated Theon much better than Sansa is being treated, so I don't know if it's completely comparable, except on paper. Theon was treated well by the Starks and their compatriots (like Ser Rodrik), so he's being put in a very tough position.

But still, Theon Greyjoy is being put in a very difficult position: His loyalties are divided between his name and his friends, and he's trying to walk a very tight line. He doesn't want to hurt people like Rickon, Bran, and Rodrik, but when they stand up to him, he has to take drastic measures in order to keep his status among his men.

He could stand up to his father or his men, but in doing so he abandons his birthright. He's never going be a lord of Winterfell or anywhere else if he does, though if he sides with his father he keeps his family's status. And that's pretty much all the people in this world have.

The Starks are, more less, the viewer's point of view characters and are presented sympathetically. Ned, with the possible exception of Tyrion, was about the only person of any authority we've seen who has any kind of moral center. So, naturally, viewers are going to look upon his family favorably.

Edited by Jason Hendriks, 16 May 2012 - 11:32 AM.

[steveuk]

If you look at the history books its fairly clear that many actions have been considered "bad" or even "evil" and that the people who carried them out were not well regarded by their peers at the time.

Theon's actions mark him as a villain in the context of Westeros too. He is leading a group of pirates (for want of a better term) and they're internal power structure is based on strength and violence, but in the larger world, although other people are often victims of that sort of behaviour, and they may accept it out of fear, they don't like, admire or respect it.

Theon uses the word "cruel" to describe his own actions. He knows what he's doing and he knows what it means.

[Jim Ohara]

As for your analogy with Sansa, I have no doubt that the Starks treated Theon much better than Sansa is being treated, so I don't know if it's completely comparable, except on paper. Theon was treated well by the Starks and their compatriots (like Ser Rodrik), so he's being put in a very tough position.

Sersi is being treated badly by Joffery, but from what I can tell she lives in luxury with servants and as much food as she wants. And the queen has some genuine sympathy for her. Her conditions and Theons aren't that different.

Theon's actions mark him as a villain in the context of Westeros too. He is leading a group of pirates (for want of a better term) and they're internal power structure is based on strength and violence, but in the larger world, although other people are often victims of that sort of behaviour, and they may accept it out of fear, they don't like, admire or respect it.

How is what Theon did any different from what Robb Stark did? Both had their family members die, both raised an army and both are killing and fighting their way to revenge.

This talk of this person being good or that person being evil I think dismisses the work done by Marin to make each character so human and complicated. Jamie tried to kill a child, but he's not typically in the evil camp because he's charming as hell, and he was doing it for love. The entire book is filled with examples of characters doing wrong things for the right reasons. The only true villains are the panto villains (Joffery and Ser Gregor).

[steveuk]

Because it is different Jim.

Even a psychopath like Jamie can tell that difference, despite the fact that doesn't feel it, but characters like Theon are shown feeling the emotions that come with knowingly doing something wrong.

And if they can see that I'm sure you can too.

[Ricardo_C]

Sersi is being treated badly by Joffery, but from what I can tell she lives in luxury with servants and as much food as she wants. And the queen has some genuine sympathy for her. Her conditions and Theons aren't that different.

Somehow I don't see the Starks as being capable of dishing out regular beatings to their hostages. Certainly Theon was never stripped naked and whipped for the court's amusement. And Ned never commanded Ser Roderik to slap Theon around in the Great Hall.

How is what Theon did any different from what Robb Stark did? Both had their family members die, both raised an army and both are killing and fighting their way to revenge.

This talk of this person being good or that person being evil I think dismisses the work done by Marin to make each character so human and complicated. Jamie tried to kill a child, but he's not typically in the evil camp because he's charming as hell, and he was doing it for love. The entire book is filled with examples of characters doing wrong things for the right reasons. The only true villains are the panto villains (Joffery and Ser Gregor).

Robb's father was falsely accused of treason. Robb called the banners. Ned was executed. The northmen decided to secede from the Seven Kingdoms, which after all, had only been united because the Targaryens had dragons, three centuries ago. All hell breaks loose.

Theon Greyjoy was reunited with his family as part of a plan hatched by himself and Robb. When faced with the choice between backing his foster family, who have bad blood with his own; or his own father, he chooses his father. Up to this point, his choice is understandable, even if to our modern perceptions he's being a backstabbing coward. He makes his father's grudge his own. Fair enough. However, instead of sticking to themission he's given, he decides to make the betrayal of his former brother complete by taking his home, and (seemingly) slaughtering what remains of his family.

Again, I'm probably too far in Starkland, but while both men fuel war, with all its attendant consequences, only one of the two is doing "what needs to be done" when faced with a cataclismic threat to his family's lives. The other is exercising power for its own sake, at the expense of the only people who ever treated him as one of their own.

I really don't think anyone's dismissing Theon as wholly evil. But it is possible for an otherwise ordinary man to make enough bad choices to end up becoming a monster. A three-dimensional, complex, human monster, but a monster nonetheless. Even the cruelest dictators in our world love their own families, and may show kindness to individuals. But they're still capable of ordering the murder of millions if they deem it "necessary".

I enjoy the intellectual exercises that the series enables, but I think on this one you may be simplifying the issues to the point where you reach the conclusion that warlike feudal societies are bad, and therefore all participants are equal in all respects, an argument which runs counter to the same complexity you're using as the cornerstone of your argument here.

PS-- However charming, Jaime is a villain. Multifaceted villain, to be sure, but still a villain. He will still have to face the music at some point.

Spoiler

He crippled Bran, and his sword hand was taken from him, which effectively cripples him in all the ways that matter. But given the rest of his legacy, assuming Brienne doesn't kill him, I expect him to end up on the Wall by the time the series ends.

Edited by Ricardo_C, 16 May 2012 - 02:55 PM.

[Jim Ohara]

I enjoy the intellectual exercises that the series enables, but I think on this one you may be simplifying the issues to the point where you reach the conclusion that warlike feudal societies are bad, and therefore all participants are equal in all respects, an argument which runs counter to the same complexity you're using as the cornerstone of your argument here.

I'm not going all the way to say Robb and Theon are equals, but I am trying to point out that Theon isn't quite the horror most readers treat him as. The story structure puts most readers thoroughly behind the Stark family, with Sansa as the least liked as she's essentially a coward for most people. And that's the basic story structure. But I think one of the things that makes the books special is the forced perspective we get by following so many different characters and getting their internal motivations. In fact some characters like Robert, Joffery, Stannis, Varys and Littlefinger suffer a little by not having that personal treatment. I'd loved to have a Joffery chapter in the book, but then that'd remove one character the reader can truly hate. The TV show makes things more neutral as everyone is seen level, so they resort to obvious sadism to get their point across.

I'd argued with you last season about Joffery. Everyone hated him, but I pointed out that his Dad had died and this stranger from the North was plotting to take him from the throne and calling him an inbred bastard. Damn right any prince would throw the guy in prison and have him executed (think what it would be like if treacherous Littlefinger had played the role instead of noble Lord Stark). Joffery could have sent Ned to the wall, but leaving open ended issues threatening your kingship can be a problem (as Westeros will find with Daenerys). Of course they went and made Joffery a panto villain who beats on girls and suddenly his humanity is removed to the point where he's just a cipher, rather than a human being. How different would the story be if Joffery were nice to Sansa?

There's certainly degrees of good and evil in all the characters, but the talent I see is that everyone ultimately is doing the right thing from their perspective. They're taking care of their family and doing what they think is best for the land. Stannis goes to war because he thinks the throne is his by right. Renley goes to war for the same reason, and he'd be better than Stannis. Robb goes to war because his dad is executed for being a traitor. Theon goes to war because his brothers were killed and his enemy is finally weak. Daenerys tries to build an army to take back her throne. And all of them believe they're doing the right thing, even though all of them are making the country suffer for what's ultimately personal bullshit. And they're all wrong. The rightful king is Joffery, until proof comes out that Jamie is his father. Then it's Gendry (who I hope ends up on the throne).

It's a bit like this week with Jon fighting the wildlings. He's doing so because he's told he should. He never actually thinks why that is. The wildlings could go from the enemy to someone the viewer roots for, and they see the Nights Watch as a bunch of bastards forcing them to live in starvation (a veiled Israel-Palestine comparison). Jon is in the right, we believe he's in the right, then he meets and hot wildling girl and suddenly life gets complicated. This entire series is complicated. It's pretty close to Lost in that regard, except Lost had to resort to having Smokey be the bad guy so we all had someone to boo.

Perhaps I just see things differently, but it means I can't agree when characters are called monsters or villains. I think it's all too grey for such simple labels. Obviously others will think differently. That doesn't mean it needs to become an internet 'no you're wrong' discussion. I think it's a testament to the power of the book that we can all take our own thing from it.

[steveuk]

As I recall, you said Joffrey was already a panto villain in the first season?