75 replies to this topic

[The Lorcan Nagle]

That Dick quote is a very succinct way of saying what I was trying to.

[David Meadows]

Neuromancer isn't science fiction because the Dixie Flatline exists, but because Case has to decide if this is his old mentor. It's not science fiction because Invisibility cloaks exist, bur because it helps enable social movements and groups like the Panther Moderns.

I think that's the best definition I've read so far.

[Christian U]

Science fiction, especially literature engages in world building and exploration of societial and technological changes in a way that other fiction doesn't. Compare, say the Ocean's 11 remake to Neuromancer. Both are heist stories with science fictional technology (the EMP generator and some of the computer stuff in Ocean's 11 are wholly unrealistic). In Ocean's 11 the EMP generator is a tool of the story, in Neuromancer the Matrix, the Sprawl and the other technological changes are explored, and how humanity is changed as a result is an important point.

Neuromancer isn't science fiction because the Dixie Flatline exists, but because Case has to decide if this is his old mentor. It's not science fiction because Invisibility cloaks exist, bur because it helps enable social movements and groups like the Panther Moderns.

Well, exactly. With Ocean's 11, the EMP is just a random tool that doesn't happen to actually exist in an otherwise real-world setting. You get that a lot, in a lot of films and shows (Q's gimmicks, obviously).

Whereas sci-fi explores society and humanity using imaginative speculation, creating ideas and movements that don't exist yet and extrapolating existing ones, throwing up a dark mirror of today by painting a future scenario.

And in pure hypotheticals, let's say the books are totally identical, save for the publishing date. Is hindsight then the only thing that makes Book X: the 2012 edition not sci-fi?

Well, for one thing, that would be purely hypothetical, because there has never been, nor will there ever be a 100% accurate sci-fi depiction of a future society. For the other... like I said, the purpose is different. You create a future to more clearly show things that you see in the present. Creating a past to show what our present looked like from a distance, before it happened, is a completely different approach, to me.



Another great example is, of course, Gibson's Blue Ant trilogy, which explores the present as science fiction. It's not in the sci-fi category for me, but I can certainly understand where seeing it as such comes from.

Edited by Christian U, 11 May 2012 - 04:27 PM.

[The Lorcan Nagle]

Oh, I'd totally call the Blue Ant novels sci-fi.

[Christian U]

I thought you might

[The Lorcan Nagle]

I think your last paragraph defines sci-fi for me - the Blue Ant novels explore the present day as if it was sci-fi, just like the Baroque sequence explores the Enlightenment. For me, that is science fiction

[Christian U]

I think your last paragraph defines sci-fi for me - the Blue Ant novels explore the present day as if it was sci-fi, just like the Baroque sequence explores the Enlightenment. For me, that is science fiction

Whereas to me, it just takes one stylistic element from science fiction. I mean, come on, try explaining that to a customer in your bookshop who is asking you why a historical novel is in the sci-fi section!

I dunno, making the difference the divergence between the reality we all consensually more or less share and one that writer has extrapolated/created just still seems like the obvious way to go, and a definition that fits in pretty much all but a very few cases (that we discussed, where the being near, or even a part, of the genre is down to approaches that have a sci-fi tradition) - and gives you a pretty good idea of what you will see in the shelves when you go to the sci-fi section.



I also still think it answers the question this thread started with: Some people are interested in reading books about made-up stuff, about exploring ideas to their full extent and imagining what kind of society this might lead to. Some aren't, but rather see that as a waste of time because it doesn't have anything to do with their lives, in their view.

Same goes for fantasy, but rather more extremely: The connection to our reality is even further removed, so the escapist factor becomes more important, which appeals to some people and pushes away others.

Edited by Christian U, 12 May 2012 - 07:13 AM.

[The Lorcan Nagle]

So Christian, where are the Blue Ant and Baroque novels stocked in your bookshops?

[Christian U]

So Christian, where are the Blue Ant and Baroque novels stocked in your bookshops?

Oh, I'd stock them in the mainstream sections. I think it's where they are, too... which is probably for the best.

In my own bookshelves, by the way, they're under "G" for Gibson. I do not differentiate between genre and mainstream literature, oh no Sir! It's all strictly alphabetic. Well, actually, it's nationalities first, because I'm not sure what'd happen if I just mixed all the German and all the English-language books.

[The Lorcan Nagle]

I didn't mean the bookshop you'd run, but the ones you shop in...

[Christian U]

I didn't mean the bookshop you'd run, but the ones you shop in...

Yeah, like I said, I think they're in the mainstream section. I suspect that's true for most of the bookstores you'd care to take a look at, too.

[Mike]

And thus the 'Sci-Fi Shelving Cameraphone Challenge' was born.


In the red corner, the pagan from Ireland, the mod with the most ... it's LORCAN!

In the blue corner, the teacher from Germany, beansprout with a shock ... it's CHRISTIAN!

[The Lorcan Nagle]

Hey, it's an excuse to go to bookshops!

[Dave Wallace]

And thus the 'Sci-Fi Shelving Cameraphone Challenge' was born.


In the red corner, the pagan from Ireland, the mod with the most ... it's LORCAN!

In the blue corner, the teacher from Germany, beansprout with a shock ... it's CHRISTIAN!

There are going to be a lot of bookshops confused by why two guys with cameraphones keep moving chunks of their stock from one section to another.

[The Lorcan Nagle]

nah, I do that every week.

[Christian U]

And thus the 'Sci-Fi Shelving Cameraphone Challenge' was born.


In the red corner, the pagan from Ireland, the mod with the most ... it's LORCAN!

In the blue corner, the teacher from Germany, beansprout with a shock ... it's CHRISTIAN!

Hah! Brilliant! I so accept that challenge!