33 replies to this topic

[Mike]

Separate thread cos I wanted to stick a poll on the top of it.

The British Medical Association announced a few weeks ago that it would ballot its members on whether they should commit to industrial action over the Government's proposals to reform medical pensions.

In my email this evening, the announcement as to when this ballot will be taking place - the last two weeks of May, and the shape of what any industrial action will look like. BMA members will be asked to vote on the following:

"The action we will be asking members to take will be to provide urgent and emergency care only for a period of 24 hours. Doctors scheduled to work would need to go to their usual workplaces and undertake some but not all of their usual duties. Where safe to do so, non-urgent clinical work, such as many routine procedures and appointments, would be postponed. A series of actions are being planned but we would review the impact – especially on patients – at every stage before deciding next steps. Ensuring patient safety will be the overriding priority."

What do you think about that?

(Incidentally, unions are not allowed to strike on matters not related directly to terms and conditions. As much as I would have loved for the BMA to call to strike over the NHS Bill, that's not a legal option)

[craggy]

In the second question, I assume by "ever strike" you mean the way it is being proposed? Offering only urgent and emergency care? Because that's understandable. If it was a full-on strike I'd be very much against it and could not condone it.

As is, I would support the action, but am appalled that it has had to come this far. The NHS is one of the greatest things about Britain, and seeing constant cuts on health and education spending hurts, as these should be our priorities. Help people live good lives by keeping them as healthy as possible and as clever as possible. Sadly it seems our current government simply wants us poor, sick and unable to go anywhere.

[garjones]

Yes, tell the Condems where to stick it.

[steveuk]

Everyone should be able to strike.

In this case I agree with the reason, but it should be an option for everyone.

[stephanie familiar]

Everyone should be able to strike.

everyone? i certainly hope you don't have an emergency on a night when 911 operators or ER doctors are on strike.

[Ben the Obiwomble]

The problem with saying: "These people cannot be allowed to strike" - is that it opens the door to being treated appallingly by the employer, you don't like the terms? What you gonna do - go on strike?

If employers behaved with the integrity and respect for others that they should do, neither strikes or unions would be needed. We don't live in that perfect world and every right for workers has had to be painfully extracted from the employers instead.

[stephanie familiar]

The problem with saying: "These people cannot be allowed to strike" - is that it opens the door to being treated appallingly by the employer, you don't like the terms? What you gonna do - go on strike?

i know, but there are certain things that society cannot function without.

[Ben the Obiwomble]

Then the simpler solution by far is to simply treat those people in such a way they do not feel compelled to contemplate striking.

Nobody works in the NHS, as far as I'm aware, simply for the money. If that was so, they'd likely be doing something else that pays significantly better. No, working in the NHS is, for the bulk of the people, more about a belief in how people should be able to access medical care and enabling that.

[Ben the Obiwomble]

Oh and on a related matter - patient choice!

Know what that comes down to when you've a problem and you need it fixing? YOU DON'T GIVE A FUCK WHO DOES IT SO LONG AS THEY FIX IT.

I'm writing this while having bastard toothache and whatever the fucking thing causing it is, it keeps going up. But rang the docs this morning, no appts but they can do a phone call. Doc rings back, I say what's going on, he says he can prescribe me this and this, all I got to do is pick up! All in the space of 5-10 minutes. And these are the people the government is treating like shit!

[craggy]

And these are the people the government is treating like shit!

it's not like Doctors are the only people the government is treating like shit. In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking of anyone but the government themselves who are getting anything good out of this regime.

[Ben the Obiwomble]

Yes, but the full list will be very long and this is Mike's thread about the docs!

[Sanjay]

I have a pretty sick mother and we rely on the good and very experienced Doctors at her local hospital for many things, including emergency visits - but I agree with them standing up to this and voted yes to both.

[steveuk]

everyone? i certainly hope you don't have an emergency on a night when 911 operators or ER doctors are on strike.

I'm sure you're really aware of how it works when essential services do have an industrial dispute.

It's about reminding those in authority what these services provide, not plunging the area, region or country into a Mad Max world of fire and death.

Strikes, work to rule actions and even public protests are no undertaken lightly, or irresponsibly in most cases.

[David Meadows]

It bothers me that doctors meekly accepted the NHS reforms (a lot of noise, but no action) but as soon as their personal benefits are affected they consider striking.

Yes, I understand that

unions are not allowed to strike on matters not related directly to terms and conditions. As much as I would have loved for the BMA to call to strike over the NHS Bill, that's not a legal option)

But if you were really as concerned about the reforms as you all said you were then screw the law, strike anyway. What are they going to do, arrest you all?

[steveuk]

Yes. They would.

You're thinking it would be too big, too complicated and too unpopular but, look at the other side of it. What would it do to a government to let thousands of people flout the law in full glare of the media spotlight?

[David Meadows]

Yes. They would.

What, ALL of them?

Maybe if they had an army of private doctors waiting in the wings.

You're thinking it would be too big, too complicated and too unpopular but, look at the other side of it. What would it do to a government to let thousands of people flout the law in full glare of the media spotlight?

I'm thinking of the miner's strike bringing down the Heath government.

The problem is not that the doctors didn't strike over the reforms, nor that they are considering striking over pensions, but that both of those things have ocurred in close proximity. Plus millions of council workers have had their T&Cs savaged and didn't strike. And you can bet that the government propaganda machine will step into high gear to exploit these facts.

This will cast doctors in a bad light I think. It will not be a popular strike.

[jamon g]

doctors never strike, just nurses. nurses do all the work anyway!

[Jim Ohara]

I think I've said before I don't like strikes as a negotiation tactic. They're other ways to get your point across. Either the strike is meek enough that the government simply ignores it or it's strong enough that it really impacts patients. As such you're not impacting the employer, you impacting the customer. It's not like striking on a construction site, or as a worker for a grocery chain, or folks in a factory walking away from the line. In those cases you're hitting the decisions makers directly. In this case you're hoping those impacted will call the decision makers and put pressure on them. You can do that equally well through marketing and campaigning.

The other thing that's bothersome is that the line between emergency and non-emergency is so blurred that it can't be defined or carried out properly. And while doctors are on strike a badly overstressed system just gets more stress put on it. And I don't see the action changing anyone's mind.

Really if you don't like what's being done stop voting Tory. And vote for politicians who want you to pay more taxes.

[Mike]

It bothers me that doctors meekly accepted the NHS reforms (a lot of noise, but no action) but as soon as their personal benefits are affected they consider striking.

...

The problem is not that the doctors didn't strike over the reforms, nor that they are considering striking over pensions, but that both of those things have ocurred in close proximity.

And I honestly don't think that's a coincidence. This Government is adept at using distraction and sleight of hand to manipulate public opinion. This week is a prime example - it began with Cameron having to deal with the serious allegation that a quarter of a million pounds buys you not use dinner with the Prime Minister, but the chance to influence policy; and it ends in an artificially created frenzy over pasties and petrol, lots of sound and fury, signifying nothing, while the real issues quietly get buried behind the scenes.

The drive to reform NHS medical pensions came at almost the same time as the NHS Bill started to lumber its way through Parliament. It is not a coincidence that the Government chose to pick a fight on two fronts, knowing full well that those engaged in one battle would also engage in the other, and that the impression of conflict of interest, of conflation of influence, could easily be created.

Cameron has managed to create a situation where the people who understand the best the damage his Health Bill will do to the substance of the NHS are also about to be able to be depicted as selfish, of speaking out only for their own gain. It's political strategising on a grand scale.

Doctors, nurses, healthcare workers of every stripe have not opposed the Health Bill because they are angry over pension reform; they have done so because they genuinely and honestly believe that this Government is aiming to systematically unpick the heart of the NHS and run the risk of damaging it beyond repair.

The NHS was a creation of its time, and it is still possible to reform it to keep it true to itself but also addressing the genuine need for change that exists - but if it is lost, recreating it anew wholecloth is likely to prove a formidable challenge.

The role of the media - and the BBC in particular - in suppressing honest debate over the NHS Bill is one of the most worrying things that has come out of the whole process. The BBC's political editors are prepared to discuss pasties at length, but refuse to cover rallies, demonstrations; refuse to give air to those calling for open and honest discussion of all of the information before committing to a decision.

I disagree with you that doctors, nurses and healthcare workers meekly accepted NHS reforms; and I absolutely disagree with your use of the past tense there.

I've marched down Whitehall three times in the last few months; I've watched in amazement as peaceful protest by crowds of hundreds and thousands has been met with police armed with machine guns - and then amazed again when neither the protest, nor the disproportionate response, has made it to that day's television news. I, and many like me, have lobbied, argued, donated, shouted, explained, demanded that ideological change in the name of reform is challenged and exposed for what it is.

The significance of the Royal Colleges slowly being brought from passive acceptance, to questioning co-operation to outright opposition to the Bill should not be under-estimated - these are deeply deeply socially conservative bodies who do not stand up and place themselves firmly in opposition to Government lightly.

I have watched as the Prime Minister and the Health Secretary have been too scared to venture into hospitals, full of the people who they claim support their agenda, in full view of the press - Lansley took a heavy police escort with him on his last trip into an NHS hospital, and contrived to have the troublesome medical staff cooped up in another part of the building when he embarked on his unannounced visit.

I have seen doctors of sound character have their name and reputation called into question simply for attempting to discuss the truth; I have watched the Government attempt to silence dissent through improper use of disciplinary proceedings; and I have been proud to have been part of the voice that stood up against those actions.

This Government has played every trick it knows to silence and muzzle the voice of people opposed to this Bill.

Whether you agree with it or not, striking was never an option over the NHS Bill. It is illegal. That this Government feels itself above the law - as when it ignored the Court Order to publish the Risk Register a few weeks back - is one thing; I am not.

A doctor illegally striking would not just be at risk of being fired and of legal prosecution; they would also almost certainly be struck off by the General Medical Council, regardless of whether the GMC felt that the action was morally justified or not. I'm no good to anyone if I am struck off. They don't need to prosecute every doctor who strikes illegally - they just need to make an example of enough by striking their name from the register to make the penalty for going that route too high to pay; and in truth, the threat of that is enough.

I also disagree with you that it is just the role of doctors and others who work for the NHS to stand up and protest this Bill, now an Act.

I don't object to the Act because I fear for who's going to pay my wages; I object to it because I think it will create deep new divides in the social structure of this country; it will take inequality and it will amplify it, it will strip the NHS of its founding beliefs and set it on the way towards a healthcare system driven not by the simple desire to do the most good by the most people, but to make the most profit for those with the most to gain. It's not just me who's going to feel the effects of this - and to be honest, most individual doctors are not likely to do too badly out of Cameron's market driven future vision of a Health Economy - it's everyone. And if you feel that the Act is a dangerous thing then it's just as much your responsibility as mine to stand up and make your voice be heard.

The NHS is an amazing thing. It lumbers and creaks a bit but when it has to it is capable of doing the most miraculous things. Every failing in it I see, every way we could do something a bit better, pales into insignificance when I look at the alternative. It is absolutely something worth fighting for, before it's too late.

This will cast doctors in a bad light I think. It will not be a popular strike.

I don't disagree.

[Mark Peyton]

Any strike at this moment will be portrayed by the media in a negative light. The reality does not mean that it is in fact viewed negatively as support I've seen on picket lines and at demonstrations is increasingly positive.