136 replies to this topic

[Chris D]

The main plot driver of the show changed from 'will they find Earth?' to 'how the hell did Starbuck come back from the dead?' after season 3. It took the show from mostly sci-fi to mostly religious mumbo jumbo.

While I agree that the final season was a huge letdown that showed that the writers really were making up a lot of it as they went along, we can't ignore that the entire series is heaped in piles of religious mumbo jumbo. Theology was a giganitc part of the show from the very beginning. The problem with the end of Battlestar is that, at least for me, it was completely unsatisfying. Though at this point I don't even really remember what happened in the end because I didn't like it enough to commit to long term memory.

[steveuk]

The difference though is that the religious aspect was far more about the politics than the theology until Starbuck came back.

She was a miracle, and her return was examined as such, by the characters and the show.

[The Lorcan Nagle]

There were really two tiers of religious plots in BSG - the political stuff, like Roslin accepting the support of the fundamentalist Taurons, and the mythology stuff, which was primarily a Cylon-centric plot until Starbuck came back. But the Humans got a big look-in on the theology plots prior to series 4 too, especially in series 2 when they went back to Caprica.

[steveuk]

The idea that it was real though, real in the sense of divine intervention in things, that was a late development.

Up until Starbuck (as far as I can remember) there were people who believed in things, but plenty of those things were either unsubstantiated or had another potential explanation.

So does Starbuck's return, but it was never clarified.

[Stephen G]

Sorry folks - didn't realize I'd caused a bit of a discussion a day or two back, with my post about answered questions, and then was just gone. I've been off line, almost entirely until today.

::spoilers::

I have 3 episodes left - fleshing out Starbuck a bit further is one of them ...but I think that was something I came to grips with upon my initial watch through. So despite my not having seen the end (again) yet, I'll shoot out what I think, while reserving the right to revise in the near future (like tonight when I finish). There are ALL types of religious allegories through out the show. I think Starbuck plays the Jesus-like role. She died because she needed to. She was resurrected to lead the people to a home. An earth. It was her Father (s4 ep17) that showed her the way "home." And when he job was done...she didn't ascend into the clouds, but she sure disappeared in a clearing, with blue skies and (I believe) clouds behind her and Lee. Not exactly the same...but sure similar (much like many of the other Battlestar allegories). I'm fine with Starbuck being an angel of the one, true god, like the Gasas and the 6. They were real to them. Kara happened to be real to everyone. And you SEE that she gets it. You see that she knew that she had filled her role, and it was time for her to go back to her "home." She accepted her destiny.

I'll look forward to seeing how this stands up later on tonight - but as of now...I'm confident in that answer.

Speaking of which - I met Edward James Olmos again yesterday. Incredibly likable guy! Super funny, very charismatic. He ended the panel (at a con) with a series of So Say We Alls...the room erupted. It was super cool.

[Henry Blanco]

Crap, Stephen, I didn't realize that you needed spoiler tags. Sorry.

[Dave Wallace]

Crap, Stephen, I didn't realize that you needed spoiler tags. Sorry.

I think Stephen's doing a rewatch, so he's seen the series all the way through already.

[Henry Blanco]

I think Stephen's doing a rewatch, so he's seen the series all the way through already.

Conscience: CLEARED.

[The Lorcan Nagle]

The idea that it was real though, real in the sense of divine intervention in things, that was a late development.

Up until Starbuck (as far as I can remember) there were people who believed in things, but plenty of those things were either unsubstantiated or had another potential explanation.

So does Starbuck's return, but it was never clarified.

God's existence was claimed to be true as far back as series 1 by Head Six, in series 2 Boomer talked about the Cylon God as an entity that directly talked to the Cylons (He gave them the commandment to be fruitful, hence their experimentations in the Farms on Caprica), and she also referred to the legends of the Lords of Kobol as if they were fact, telling the Colonials that he knew more about the facts behind their mythology than they did.

Basically, there were loads of people who had some level of facts to back up their claims, going back as far as the Kobol arc.

[Stephen G]

Yeah sorry - I was throwing the "spoilers" out there, simply because I was addressing a major piece of the entire show but it'd been long enough where I didn't think it needed spoiler text. Was just trying to be courteous.

[David Meadows]

What was Starbuck when she came back from the dead?

A stupid idea?


...Do I win something for getting it right?

God's existence was claimed to be true as far back as series 1 by Head Six, in series 2 Boomer talked about the Cylon God as an entity that directly talked to the Cylons (He gave them the commandment to be fruitful, hence their experimentations in the Farms on Caprica), and she also referred to the legends of the Lords of Kobol as if they were fact, telling the Colonials that he knew more about the facts behind their mythology than they did.

Basically, there were loads of people who had some level of facts to back up their claims, going back as far as the Kobol arc.

Characters in the series had what they believed were facts -- we (the viewers) were never able to independently confirm those facts, until the point where Starbuck was resurrected with a miraculous explanation.

Characters claiming god's existence is not the same as the writers proving his existence by showing us a miracle. Resurrecting Starbuck in a miraculous way, thereby showing us evidence of an interventionist god, changes the series from being a religious/spiritual one that explores faith and belief to being one about... well... about an interventionist god.

[steveuk]

God's existence was claimed to be true as far back as series 1 by Head Six, in series 2 Boomer talked about the Cylon God as an entity that directly talked to the Cylons (He gave them the commandment to be fruitful, hence their experimentations in the Farms on Caprica), and she also referred to the legends of the Lords of Kobol as if they were fact, telling the Colonials that he knew more about the facts behind their mythology than they did.

Basically, there were loads of people who had some level of facts to back up their claims, going back as far as the Kobol arc.

Yes, but the people telling running the show didn't treat it as "god" or "supernatural" before re-introducing Starbuck.

The show's producers specifically refuse to explain what is really behind her presence, or Baltar's Six in his head or the Baltar that Caprica Six sees.

As David says, once Starbuck shows up you've got something that goes beyond the "ancient astronaut" explanation that gives a (pseudo) scientific explanation to everything else.

The show teases us with ideas for most of its run, but at the end its saying that there is, in this context, something you can call "god", even if it doesn't like that name.

[The Lorcan Nagle]

Characters in the series had what they believed were facts -- we (the viewers) were never able to independently confirm those facts, until the point where Starbuck was resurrected with a miraculous explanation.

The Lords of Kobol are treated as both historical and supernatural beings all throughout the series, and there's a number of supernatural/divine events that can be attributed to them - especially Roslin's insights under the influence of Chamala root.

In Kobol's last gleaming, Roslin correctly identifies the ruins of City of the Gods even though she never saw it before.

In the same episode, she surmises that they need to bring the Arrow of Athena from Caprica to her Tomb on Kobol to correctly find the way to Earth. In Home, this is proven true. Also in Home the Colonials come across the field from where their predecessors left Kobol. The Eight that would later become Athena gives an accurate description of the Colonials' retreat.

There's no doubt that the Lords of Kobol are real. You can possibly debate whether the Cylon God exists or not, but all the evidence points to Him existing. It's kinda funny, because I can remember people being excited about the notion that God existed in series 2, and then complaning that God existed in series 4. Not saying that you were one of those people, but I remember some very amusing comments along those lines when the show was on the air.

Characters claiming god's existence is not the same as the writers proving his existence by showing us a miracle. Resurrecting Starbuck in a miraculous way, thereby showing us evidence of an interventionist god, changes the series from being a religious/spiritual one that explores faith and belief to being one about... well... about an interventionist god.

I get where you're coming from, but you're either misremembering or misinterpreting events from early in the show's run. They don't say for sure that God exists until the end of the show, but there were plenty of suggestions and hints before that. One of the first lines in the first regular episode is "God has a special plan for you"...

[Stephen G]

The Lords of Kobol are treated as both historical and supernatural beings all throughout the series, and there's a number of supernatural/divine events that can be attributed to them - especially Roslin's insights under the influence of Chamala root.

In Kobol's last gleaming, Roslin correctly identifies the ruins of City of the Gods even though she never saw it before.

In the same episode, she surmises that they need to bring the Arrow of Athena from Caprica to her Tomb on Kobol to correctly find the way to Earth. In Home, this is proven true. Also in Home the Colonials come across the field from where their predecessors left Kobol. The Eight that would later become Athena gives an accurate description of the Colonials' retreat.

There's no doubt that the Lords of Kobol are real. You can possibly debate whether the Cylon God exists or not, but all the evidence points to Him existing. It's kinda funny, because I can remember people being excited about the notion that God existed in series 2, and then complaning that God existed in series 4. Not saying that you were one of those people, but I remember some very amusing comments along those lines when the show was on the air.



I get where you're coming from, but you're either misremembering or misinterpreting events from early in the show's run. They don't say for sure that God exists until the end of the show, but there were plenty of suggestions and hints before that. One of the first lines in the first regular episode is "God has a special plan for you"...

Having JUST finished rewatching the series - Lorcan is bang on. The notion of "god" is a theme through out the entire series. The 6 is Baltar's head self-identified as an angel in early season 2. At that point It was a theme and name that was revisited in frequency from tat point forward. And just because "it" didn't like to be called "god," doesn't mean it wasn't a higher god-like power...it absolutely was. Even before Starbuck's angelic resurrection (which turned out to be confirmation by late season 4 - she very well could have been a Cylon right up til' the end, IMO) there were signs all over the place that we are the viewer were seeing, but not all the pieces were coming together for the rest of the cast.

I have more thoughts about the finale...but I'll actually tie this into Blood and Chrome. A week ago - I SO BADLY wanted BLood and Chrome. But having finished the show again last night...I'm not really sure I do. Given the ending of the show...and the cycles we were made aware of...I'm not sure that Caprica or Blood and Chrome are necessary. DO I want more BSG...absolutely...I'm just not sure the story of Caprica...which is the story of Cobol (revisited, essentially...which is the story of earth (this has all happened before, and will happen again) - or the life of young Bill Adama need to be told. Definitely at a weird cross-road.

[steveuk]

Is there a band called 'The Lords of Kobol'?

There should be.

[The Lorcan Nagle]

If there is, it should be fronted by Timmy from South Park.

[Stephen G]

"Kara Thrace & Her Special Destiny" could be their opening act.

[The Lorcan Nagle]

I have more thoughts about the finale...but I'll actually tie this into Blood and Chrome. A week ago - I SO BADLY wanted BLood and Chrome. But having finished the show again last night...I'm not really sure I do. Given the ending of the show...and the cycles we were made aware of...I'm not sure that Caprica or Blood and Chrome are necessary. DO I want more BSG...absolutely...I'm just not sure the story of Caprica...which is the story of Cobol (revisited, essentially...which is the story of earth (this has all happened before, and will happen again) - or the life of young Bill Adama need to be told. Definitely at a weird cross-road.

I really liked Caprica because it was so different from BSG. It was very much its own show, telling an (IMO) compelling story, and doing a lot of things I love about written SF that don't often get done in the filmed versions thereof. I'd like to see Blood and Chome because it looks cool, more than I really want to see more adventures of young Bill Adama.

[The Lorcan Nagle]

Somethign else to consider with God in BSG. We know He intervened at various points in the Colonials' quest for Earth, but do we know that He solved all their problems? The final dialogue on modern Earth between Head Baltar and Head Six suggests that God has been trying to resolve the Cylon/Human conflict across the cycles, and failing. The final montage of robots suggests that He hasn't cracked it this time around either.

[Stephen G]

I really liked Caprica because it was so different from BSG. It was very much its own show, telling an (IMO) compelling story, and doing a lot of things I love about written SF that don't often get done in the filmed versions thereof. I'd like to see Blood and Chome because it looks cool, more than I really want to see more adventures of young Bill Adama.

That's very interesting. And worth considering. A week ago - I was gung-ho to watch it, as soon as I was done w/ BSG. I even bought the Caprica opening movie at this Con I was at, over the weekend (for $2). It may just be this mental time of completeness I have watching it, right now. I'm in awe of how I believe all of the question I had were answered, and that I actually believe the show ended in a great place character wise. My fear is obviously of that being tarnished in watching Caprica.

That said - there really is no way of knowing without checking...and I did buy the movie, so I might as well watch it and make the determination.

Somethign else to consider with God in BSG. We know He intervened at various points in the Colonials' quest for Earth, but do we know that He solved all their problems? The final dialogue on modern Earth between Head Baltar and Head Six suggests that God has been trying to resolve the Cylon/Human conflict across the cycles, and failing. The final montage of robots suggests that He hasn't cracked it this time around either.

THIS is interesting. Awesome insight, but I have a bit of a different take on it, with the same religious angle. It's not so much about "god" solving human/cylon issues, as it is equipping them with the ability to solve the problems themselves. They were each given tools...and slowly but surely grew. It took this all happening before, and happening again for that growth to take place...but it did occur. I won't even use the terms evolved...I'd say both grew or matured. Both species grew and matured, in taking in-depth looks at there forefathers, and choosing in the end, to stop repeating their mistakes. No more enslaving. No more fighting...it took a couple of thousand years - but they finally decided to work together. I think that was more so, what the "one, true god" was after - not so much solving their problems - but giving them the tools to be the best PEOPLE they can be, no matter the "species."

Thoughts?