199 replies to this topic

[Chewy Sun]

Anyone else following this Trayvon Martin story down in florida?

http://www.miamihera...th-trayvon.html

The federal and state agencies are intervening in what attorneys call a botched investigation into the killing of the Michael Krop Senior High School student, who was killed Feb. 26 in Sanford, a town of 55,000 just north of Orlando. Trayvon, 17, on suspension from school, was staying at his father’s girlfriend’s house when he walked to a nearby a 7-Eleven store to buy candy and iced tea.

Chewy..............................................so messed up that the shooter was not even charged.

[Rory Abel]

Anyone else following this Trayvon Martin story down in florida?

http://www.miamihera...th-trayvon.html




Chewy..............................................so messed up that the shooter was not even charged.

Not charged yet. The justice department is getting involved and a grand jury is going to be convened.

Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

MIAMI — A grand jury will hear evidence next month in the fatal shooting of an unarmed black Florida teenager by a neighborhood watch volunteer, the state attorney’s office for Brevard and Seminole Counties announced on Tuesday.

The shooting last month of the teenager, Trayvon Martin, which has set off a national outcry, is also being investigated by the Justice Department.

On Tuesday, the state attorney for Brevard and Seminole, Norman R. Wolfinger, released a statement saying that a Seminole grand jury would examine the episode beginning on April 10. He asked for the public’s patience while law enforcement officials continue to investigate.

It's a really bad situation and I'll be shocked if the shooter isn't eventually charged (The 911 operator specifically told him to stop following Martin). It's also going to bring a lot of scrutiny to Florida's "stand your ground" law as well.

[Johnny Henning]

Yeah, that's the thing - without a witness or some physical evidence contradicting his claim, it will be really difficult to disprove a self defense claim or prove a crime.

[Jim Ohara]

CNN reported the kid was on the phone when he was shot. That should help settle matters. Situations like this are to be expected when you have an environment where people are free to shoot and kill others if they feel threatened. Define threatened.

[Johnny Henning]

CNN reported the kid was on the phone when he was shot. That should help settle matters. Situations like this are to be expected when you have an environment where people are free to shoot and kill others if they feel threatened. Define threatened.

Yeah, this is certainly an environment promoting unsafe behavior.

Also, it turns out the woman he was talking to didn't hear anything when the shooting took place. Also, the victim's "girlfriend" is not going to be the best witness for the investigation anyway. She wasn't there, she didn't hear exactly what happened at the moment the gun was drawn or when Martin was shot, and she's obviously going to be biased against Zimmerman.

At this point, if Zimmerman does get charged, I'm betting it will be probably be because people are upset than due to any evidence or legal case the state or federal government can produce.

[Rory Abel]

Yeah, this is certainly an environment promoting unsafe behavior.

Also, it turns out the woman he was talking to didn't hear anything when the shooting took place. Also, the victim's "girlfriend" is not going to be the best witness for the investigation anyway. She wasn't there, she didn't hear exactly what happened at the moment the gun was drawn or when Martin was shot, and she's obviously going to be biased against Zimmerman.

At this point, if Zimmerman does get charged, I'm betting it will be probably be because people are upset than due to any evidence or legal case the state or federal government can produce.

His girlfriend or his father's girlfriend? That's the real issue here, he was walking to his father's girlfriend's house where he lived so he had every right to be there. He was walking in the rain so he had his hood up, which Zimmerman took to be suspicious. He then stalked this kid despite being told by the police to stop and wait for officers to arrive and the proceeded to shoot an unarmed child. No matter what it's going to look bad for him at trial.

[Arjan Dirkse]

I'd love to hear Zimmerman's reason for why the kid was "a threat" that had to be solved with death. If the kid didn't have a gun or knife on him, then it's going to be difficult to justify shooting him, right? At what point is a threat deemed a good reason for shooting? Is an angry look enough?

[Robert B]

Yeah, that's the thing - without a witness or some physical evidence contradicting his claim, it will be really difficult to disprove a self defense claim or prove a crime.

And since the police didn't arrest him immediately, he avoided drug and alcohol tests and things like that.

This guy sounds like a real piece of work, too.

[Johnny Henning]

Still, look at the case against him. Are 911 operators police officers? From the reports I've read, the 911 operator told him to wait for police, but anyone who's called 911 knows that the officers don't show up right away. In Los Angeles, every time I've called 9-1-1 about the suspicious cars that park at the end of our street at night, no patrol car ever shows up unless maybe they come long after I've gone to bed. On top of that, looks like in Florida, you're not legally required to obey those instructions -- honestly, I'm not sure any state makes 9-11 instructions legally binding.

I'd love to hear Zimmerman's reason for why the kid was "a threat" that had to be solved with death. If the kid didn't have a gun or knife on him, then it's going to be difficult to justify shooting him, right? At what point is a threat deemed a good reason for shooting? Is an angry look enough?

This is a particularly American thing, probably, but if you are carrying a gun and someone attacks you, then you are expected to shoot them. Seriously, and if you think about it, it makes sense. That weapon is the first recourse for self defense because if you do not use it, then you risk giving your attacker the opportunity of taking the gun away from you.

There is no sort of "fair play" doctrine where you can only use the gun if your assailant is also armed. The possession of a firearm comes with the understanding that you will use it in any kind of situation where you feel physically threatened irrespective if the threat has a firearm or no weapon at all.

[Jim Ohara]

The damming quote is Zimmerman saying 'They always get away'. He knew what he was doing by following the kid. He wasn't under threat, he disobeyed the dispatcher, and there's no witnesses to say he was being attacked. Plus he's not got a good background. And an innocent child was murdered. Part of living in society is letting the police do their job, even if they don't do it well. Zimmerman is going to jail - I don't see it settling any other way. If only to not set a legal precedent for murder without guilt. If he gets off then it becomes law that you can kill someone for really any reason.

There is no sort of "fair play" doctrine where you can only use the gun if your assailant is also armed. The possession of a firearm comes with the understanding that you will use it in any kind of situation where you feel physically threatened irrespective if the threat has a firearm or no weapon at all.

I don't see it being quite so simple. You need to define threatened. I can't murder my wife just because she's picked up a cup and wants to throw it at my head.

[Johnny Henning]

You have to prove murder or manslaughter. That's the basic legal foundation of the American justice system. If it goes to trial, Zimmerman doesn't have prove that this was self-defense, the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't - and that isn't easy even in supposed cut-and-dried cases. No matter how people feel about the circumstances leading up to it, there might be no conclusive way to rule out the possibility that Martin angrily struck out at this weird aggressive man following him.

Now, if it turns out that Martin was shot in the back or at a good distance from Zimmerman, that would be physical evidence disputing his claim, but, oddly, the reports of the phone call seem to back up the idea that a scuffle took place just before the shooting. On top of that, was the crime scene investigated in a properly forensic manner? It may be impossible for the DA to even present any evidence about the event if the police didn't follow proper procedures. That could lead to a civil suit by Martin's family against the city, by the way.

The problem is that if Martin did anything - even pushed Zimmerman or took a swing at him - then it looks like Florida law is on the shooter's side. And it would be a challenge to prove he didn't. At the same time, Zimmerman may have never intended it to get this far -- he could've been completely unaware his behavior and attitude were leading him to kill someone until after it got out of hand.

[Chris D]

I would certainly hope this guy goes to jail. This isn't even a case of "Standing Your Ground", it's a case where a guy tails a kid until he seemingly freaks out and runs (a natural reaction when you realize a creepy dude is trailing you in the rain). And then the guy proceeds to chase down the kid. Even if the kid did start fighting, in that situation it would be understandable. Because a strange guy is aggressively chasing him for no good reason.

If he doesn't go to prison it will be a horrible miscarriage of justice and set a terrible precedence.

[Johnny Henning]

The phone call paints that picture pretty well. I'm concerned that the police may have completely compromised the investigation by this point, but I suppose it could be conceivable that a prosecution would be able to prove Zimmerman's actions from the 911 call to the moment of the shooting were unlawfully aggressive in some way. Still, I can't help seeing what the defense would do if this came to a trial. The fact Zimmerman called 911 shows that he felt threatened.

[Robert B]

The fact Zimmerman called 911 shows that he felt threatened.

He's called 911 46 times this year alone.

EDIT: 46 times between Jan. 1 and when he shot Martin.

Edited by Robert B, 20 March 2012 - 10:08 PM.

[Lucian Von Dooom]

You can't claim self defence if you get involved after the 911 operator tells you to stay in your car. Zimmerman is a scumbag and I hope he's prosecuted to the full extent of the law (not holding my breathe).

[Jim Ohara]

The thing is Zimmerman has to go to jail. You can't create the Wild West in Florida or folks will be killed all over the place. The law is dumb and ill defined, and I expect the court to say so and fix it. At the end of the day an innocent kid was killed, and you can't get away with that no matter what the law says. Hell, the police can't get away with it, civilians shouldn't either.

[Ogul]

From what I understand, Zimmerman stalked Martin. He was in his car, under no threat, and hunted the boy down. You can't claim self defense when you deliberately place yourself into a dangerous situation. If you chase someone down you can't expect that they might not react and then claim self defense when they do. The minute Zimmerman got out of his car and started to follow Martin should waive all claims to self defense.

[Jim Ohara]

You can't claim self defense when you deliberately place yourself into a dangerous situation.

That Batman bastard should have been put in jail years ago.

[Johnny Henning]

The thing is Zimmerman has to go to jail. You can't create the Wild West in Florida or folks will be killed all over the place. The law is dumb and ill defined, and I expect the court to say so and fix it. At the end of the day an innocent kid was killed, and you can't get away with that no matter what the law says. Hell, the police can't get away with it, civilians shouldn't either.

The police get away with it all the time. So do civilians. Even outright murder cases are dismissed if it turns out the evidence isn't in order or was improperly obtained or the jury just doesn't believe the witnesses. So, what the law says actually does matter, because there is no other way to imprison anyone, and, really, I wouldn't want anyone to go to jail without proper representation or a fair trial. That's the risk of our justice system - that guilty people go free, but the real problem is the number of innocents who are found guilty.

I mean, as far as minorities in the US are concerned, being mistakenly or unlawfully incarcerated is a far broader and much more likely problem than being shot by a violent fool who thinks he's facing a hardened gang member. So, I don't think I could support any sort of extralegal activities in this case when, far too often, that's what young black men face in courts everyday.

[Ogul]

That Batman bastard should have been put in jail years ago.

Legally speaking, yeah. He certainly could never claim self defense. He doesn't kill people though.

The police get away with it all the time.

Police are a different story. Not that they don't go out of their bounds too, but they are police, they have a legal right to accost private citizens, and they have a badge so if they come up to you, you know you're not supposed to react negatively. If one private citizen approaches another threateningly, the second one has no idea what the first's intentions might be, so he may react violently in what he believes to be his own defense.