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Tight clothes, sexism, and body image issues

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#21
Michael Stranger

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so by that theory, it'd be okay to ignore racism against a latino man because everyone is being racist towards muslims?


Whuh?

I don't recall typing anything about body objectification in the media, in any aspect, being okay. I certainly didn't type anything about ignoring racism being okay, and it's a frankly ridiculous analogy, which I'll thank you not to bring into this discussion again.

I'd like to not have to contend with aspiring to have rock-hard abs like David Beckham in my life, it's not what humans were put on Earth for. But it's not reasonable to suggest that men have anything like the same issues to contend with as women.
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#22
craggy

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it's no fun when people throw out hyperbolic arguments without an ounce of flexibility and claim it's a discussion? damn...I read this thread wrong then, sorry.
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#23
Todd Gross

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Men have body image issues, too:

Starving to Be Thin Impacts Men, Too

"Manorexia" is a real problem for men despite what society might think.


By Marianne Favro

| Wednesday, Feb 8, 2012 | Updated 11:15 AM PST

Sure you’ve heard of women starving themselves to be thin. But what about men? A growing number of men and boys are being diagnosed with eating disorders.

Jerry of Sunnyvale, Calif., who asked that we not use his last name, was recently diagnosed, but he says he has suffered from anorexia since he was 17.

His battle started when he tried to shed pounds after the medication he was taking caused him to put on more than 50 pounds. Jerry lost that weight but then found he was obsessed with losing more.

"For five or seven days, I might just have some hot chocolate or chocolate milk during the day, pretty much no food, he said. He would go for days without any food, which caused him to frequently faint.

Still he remained committed to eating less than 600 calories and walking 10 miles a day.

"No matter how low my weight go there was always a number that was lower," Jerry said.

The disorder doesn’t just impact men. Doctors at Lucile Packard Children’s Center have treated boys as young as 9 years old.

"Males present more malnourished than their female counterparts," said Dr. Neville Golden, chief of Packard’s division of adolescent medicine. "I remember a young man who was 20 who only ate one orange a day for months."

He also says he has treated a boy who was 6 feet tall and weighed only 90 pounds.

"You can see a skeleton with muscle wasting in between the ribs," Golden said.

At his lowest weight, Jerry, who is 5 feet 11 inches tall, weighed 128 pounds. He says he tried to get help many times but doctors often told him he couldn’t have an eating disorder because he is a male and men don’t get eating disorders.

That’s a myth. Researchers estimate 10 percent of the 8 million people in the U.S. with eating disorders are males.

Often the disorder begins as a desire to excel in a sport or become very healthy or fit, but then patients start to over exercise and consume very little, Golden said.

Boys diagnosed with eating disorders are also more vulnerable to severe long-term health problems, including growth retardation and heart problems.

The warning signs of an eating disorder include someone who is preoccupied with food, exercises excessively, shows dramatic weight loss and has difficulty sleeping, Golden said.

The doctor also says there is a high prevalence of bisexual and homosexual males who develop eating disorders. He says it is critical for boys and men to get help as soon as possible, which includes working with a dietitian, a medical doctor and therapist.

Jerry was finally able to get help at a clinic in Southern California. He is finally on the road to recovery.


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#24
brucegray666

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I think this whole dudes / lady dudes discussion really boils down to one thing...


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#25
Michael Stranger

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it's no fun when people throw out hyperbolic arguments without an ounce of flexibility and claim it's a discussion? damn...I read this thread wrong then, sorry.


Well, you DID say that my theory makes it "okay to ignore racism against a latino man because everyone is being racist towards muslims" ... which does feel a bit like trying to put words in my mouth, in quite an aggressive and overblown manner. Bringing racism analogies into a topic about sexism out of the blue is always going to rile a bit, no?

My theory is that all body objectification is bad, but while men have it to an extent, it doesn't scratch the surface of how women are on the losing team against the marketers and advertisers of the world. It's a problem for everyone, but we should try to stamp it out against women first because they're worse off than we are.
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#26
craggy

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I don't see discrimination based on someones religion or skin colour being any different than discrimination based on someone's reproductive organs.

edit: BUT, yes, I suppose it does read like I was putting words into your mouth. Sorry. I try not to put things into people's mouths without them asking me first.
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#27
Ogul

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I think the point on that one was how covered the men were compared to the ladies. Apart from Wolverine with his bare arms for the guys they pretty much comply with Saudi Arabian standards.


Saudi standard usually don't allow for skin-tight clothing.I seem to remember a travelogue show in Saudi Arabia where a woman had to wear a loose garment over a diving suit when swimming in the sea.

From the article:

An idealized athletic form that few of us can achieve but many of us would admire or like to have, is imminently reasonable for a superhero form, but that’s not what we get, instead we get idealized (and wholly unrealistic) supermodel and porn star types.


The thing is, most male and female comic characters are idealized for BEAUTY, not for form. Male and Female. It just so happens that the standards for male beauty are similar to the standards for ideal physical function, while the standards for female beauty tend more towards fertility than physical capability. Is that fair? Debatable, but in any case it's not a comics-specific issue. When women with pro-athlete physiques get more movie roles than Scarlet Johnson and January Jones we can start talking about comics standards of beauty being out of whack. Now, for those characters that do deserve to have bodies built for athleticism, the "self made" heroes like Batwoman, Black Canary, Batgirl, etc., they can have physiques that favor function over beauty, and they often do.

Beauty, being perhaps even more subjective than body type idealization is tougher to talk about, but one of the most obvious examples of this disparity between male and female superheroes is in The Hulk. Bruce Banner as The Hulk? Frequently drawn as a pretty terrifying monster and certainly not considered stereotypically handsome. Jennifer Walters as She-Hulk? Stone. Cold. Fox.


Yes, but there's good reason for this. The "hulk" is an expression of the subconscious. Bruce's is a monster, a hulking beast, while Jennifer's is more an idealization of how she wished she looked, which is why she spent so much time in that form even when she could change at will. There are uglier female heroes and villains, but they aren't popular. I noticed that the writer' list was based on the character's popularity, well really, in a genre read mostly by men,m which do you think would be more popular, the attractive femme fatales, or the orgresses? If we leave popularity out of it, it's fairly easy to find eleven counterparts to the male villains she listed, including Mongal, Rampage, Granny Goodness, Stompa, Reign, Kryb, Scar, Karu-Sil, Jane Doe, Sin, and the Dire Wraith Queen. There are at least a few "ugly" female heroes as well.

To a degree, there are short skirts but I don't see the men in work covered head to toe and the ladies in swimsuits.


Yes, but you don't see those men in spandex either.When the men wear loose business suits, the women wear short skirts. when the men wear body-hugging spandex and underwear on the outside, the women wear body-hugging spandex and underwear on the outside with a bit more skin showing.

I see nothing remotely approaching a swim suit in the office and we're pretty casual.


So the men do wear full-body spandex in your office, and yet the women don't wear swimsuits? Odd. Also, you have a strange office.
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#28
garjones

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I thought spandex was out now, the Nu52 wear armour plating. Except for the ones in the swimsuits.
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#29
Ogul

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I thought spandex was out now, the Nu52 wear armour plating. Except for the ones in the swimsuits.


It's still spandex, it's just shinier and has lines in it.
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#30
Arjan Dirkse

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All the spandex and the repressed, grimacing world-threatening villains is really the first clue that there's something iffy going on...

Superhero comics can be good, but it seems that the good ones are always the ones that acknowledge the absurdity and the deeply rooted psychological issues of the whole genre.
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#31
Ulf Imwiehe

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Personally, I think armored swimwear is the way of the future…
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#32
stephanie familiar

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Men have body image issues, too:


manorexia? what idiot wrote this article?

anyways, of course men are subject to body image issues. however, when it comes to eating disorders, namely anorexia and bulimia nervosa, they still mostly affect women. that is not to say males do not have eating disorders, because they do, but they are a very small minority.
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#33
Christian U

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The article Gar posted is a very good summary of different aspects of this.
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#34
Rory Abel

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From Cracked.com:

The 5 Most Ridiculously Sexist Superhero Costumes


I'll include their number 1 selection because I think it's pretty relevant to all this:



#1. Namor

Behold the most ridiculously sexy costume in comics!

Posted Image

Marvel


Manties!

But it's not ridiculous because he's wearing a superpowered Speedo: That's how any man would react to being well-built, usually glistening and most often found on the beach. The ridiculousness comes from people who justify the superpowered strippers by pointing out that men are just as unreasonably objectified in comics.

Posted Image

Marvel


Look at the poor victimized boy, one inch from boning on the cover.

Near-naked superhorny women is a male fantasy. Being a hulking Adonis who can punch through tanks is also a male fantasy. This ... this isn't hard, guys, unlike many things when you're considering those issues. If you ever find a woman sexually excited by men with the approximate dimensions of a semi truck, it's either Tila Tequila or Optimus Prime's number one fan.

Posted Image

Marvel


See, women, we have improbable male anatomy for you, too!

This "equally idealized" bullshit is actually used by people. People paid to sell comics despite their first decision being "We'll only target half the population." We know you're in the comics industry, fellas, but that argument is the wrong type of comical. Namor is the ultimate exemplar: He's exactly what any guy would wear if he thought he could get away with it. Even when Namor puts on more clothes, they're ridiculous and show off more chest than Tom Jones during heart surgery.

Posted Image

Marvel


FEAR MY PECTORAL SIX-PACK!

His most common plot point is banging another character's wife (Sue Storm from above). He's not just included for the 10 percent of guys who got this far despite not liking girls, but to make a point. (And not just in their trousers.) It's stupid to say that the art is equally unfair because the average man can't be used as a teaching model in medical college. That's like Bond claiming it's fair that henchmen can't hit him with machine guns because he also has a ridiculous level of accuracy. It's a lot of fun, and we all go to see it, just don't claim that it's equality.

Posted Image

Marvel


A posing pouch and dressing gown. His whole wardrobe says "I get laid too often to bother with clothing."

If I were offering a carved beef buffet above a pork sausage special, that's how I'd dress. Mere physical strength would be enough superpower to make me go full Doctor Manhattan.


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#35
Arjan Dirkse

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WAR TO THE DETH!

Namor Posted Image
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#36
The Lorcan Nagle

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I predict Ogul shall disagree with that post.
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#37
craggy

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I predict Ogul shall disagree with that post.

hey! you've a 50/50 chance of predicting that correctly with ANY post. EVER.
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#38
Ulf Imwiehe

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Posted Image
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#39
craggy

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well, to be fair, isn't "sexy catman" just "catman"?
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#40
The Lorcan Nagle

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hey! you've a 50/50 chance of predicting that correctly with ANY post. EVER.


I prefer to bet on a sure thing.
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