163 replies to this topic

[Ogul]

Also, I'm not convinced that that was Sherlock's face on the ground, it was deliberately vague to the camera view, and Watson was dazed, so all I could tell for sure was that it was a guy with pale skin and blue eyes, it could easily have been someone that looks quite different when you get a square look at him.

[steveuk]

Lots of things could derail Sherlock's deception, some of them because they'd also show Moriarty's plot for what it was.

The biggest of these is Mycroft, who knows that no actor would go through the weeks of interrogation he carried out on Moriarty.

There's also the fact that the Police would have to conduct an exhaustive investigation of EVERY case Sherlock had been involved in, just as they have to when a police office is found to have been corrupt or otherwise dishonest.

Those cases would check out and Sherlock would be shown to have been for real.

Once you get to the "body" then Molly would have to juggle a lot of plates to keep someone else from twigging what really happened. Whatever that turns out to be?

Of course this is fiction, so Moffat will be free to use or ignore whatever aspects of all this he chooses. Eventually.

[Russell H]

Also, I'm not convinced that that was Sherlock's face on the ground, it was deliberately vague to the camera view, and Watson was dazed, so all I could tell for sure was that it was a guy with pale skin and blue eyes, it could easily have been someone that looks quite different when you get a square look at him.

But could Sherlock count on Watson being dazed to that degree, considering that it was out of his hands?

[Eduardo]

But could Sherlock count on Watson being dazed to that degree, considering that it was out of his hands?

The biker was a Sherlock agent, with instructions to hit John hard.

[Ogul]

But could Sherlock count on Watson being dazed to that degree, considering that it was out of his hands?.

I'm not sure that he had to count on Watson believing he was dead, just that he was playing along with it.

[Asad Baig]

Agreed with the above that Molly, the homeless network, body substitution etc are the key.

My only question is Mycroft - no way would he be duped into inadvertatntly serving his brother on a platter. Mycroft is very much part of the cover-up.

[Graham Vingoe]

Bleeding Cool have a relatively well thought through explanation of what probably happened at the end of the episode. Loved the thing but my favourite moment was the revelation of where Moriarty was hiding the 2 kids. Using Addlestone for Moriarty's criminal lair was a masterstroke.. The best thing you can actually say about Addlestone is that it has a Tesco I say this as someone who lived in the town for 33 years then moved to the bright lights bigger city that was Slough.

[steveuk]

Agreed with the above that Molly, the homeless network, body substitution etc are the key.

My only question is Mycroft - no way would he be duped into inadvertatntly serving his brother on a platter. Mycroft is very much part of the cover-up.

I think Mycroft let it happen. He's a man who's chosen to live and operate from the shadows and, in this version of Sherlock Holmes, he's willing to let his brother suffer for it.

That's not quite the Mycroft from the books, but then nothing is exactly the way it was in the original stories. Moriarty is still the biggest single change. The most recent movie version is much closer to the ACD version.

But with more kung fu.

[David Chapman]

Enjoyed that a lot. I couldn't care less if it moved too quickly for you to notice the gaps in logic - it was a great ride.

Except, it didn't move too quickly for you to notice the gaps in logic. Don't get me wrong, that episode had a lot to offer - I especially liked the reversal of the "super-computer-virus-worm-code" trope - but it fell down on a number of critical occasions. I no sooner saw "Richard Brook"'s clip file than I knew it was Moriarty faking, because "Brook" had his photo on a full-page article headlining him as an award-winning actor. An award-winning TV actor who gets full pages in a broadsheet, but nobody recognised him at the trial, or when he was on the news? It was a blatantly obvious fake, but Sherlock failed to spot it. I felt that was a shame, as for one moment before I'd wondered if Moriarty was the fake and it was actually the journalist behind it all. Now that would have been a good twist.

By the way, there's some easter eggs in the newspaper articles for extreme speedreaders and people who obsessively freeze-frame everything. The Guardian front page story begins, "In a twist worthy of a Conan Doyle novel..."

[Sanjay]

The Guardian asked it's readers their theories of how Sherlock fakes his death: http://www.guardian....h-your-theories

[Christian U]

Liked the episode, and it was wayyyyy better than last week, of course. I did, however, not like the main plot. Moriarty's plan was ridiculous, and it shouldn't have worked for a hundred different reasons, not least of which is Sherlock bumbling about stupidly for the second half of the episode. What's a bit of a shame is that the idea that Sherlock invented Moriarty is actually a great one, and I would've liked to see them actually do an episode that makes that idea work, and that would make us wonder whether that's what is going on.

[Dave Wallace]

Liked the episode, and it was wayyyyy better than last week, of course. I did, however, not like the main plot. Moriarty's plan was ridiculous, and it shouldn't have worked for a hundred different reasons, not least of which is Sherlock bumbling about stupidly for the second half of the episode.

I agree. Moriarty's plan just wasn't made to seem clever enough to test Sherlock so thoroughly (regardless of all the plot holes that make it fall apart upon close examination by the viewer), and it just made it look like Sherlock had suddenly taken stupid pills.

What's a bit of a shame is that the idea that Sherlock invented Moriarty is actually a great one, and I would've liked to see them actually do an episode that makes that idea work, and that would make us wonder whether that's what is going on.

Yeah, that could have been quite interesting.

It reminded me a little of the Batman/Black Glove stuff from a while back in the Batman comics, when it was being implied that Batman might have come up with a whole evil organisation to give himself something to rail against. It also reminded me a little of one of the stories from Gaiman's "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?", where Alfred hires actors to become supervillains to keep Batman occupied.

[David Chapman]

The problem the finale had was that both Holmes and Moriarty are smarter than the writer. It's possible to write characters who are smarter than you are, but it becomes much more important to check your facts and your logic or you'll be caught out when someone spots something you missed and your character would not have.

[steveuk]

Liked the episode, and it was wayyyyy better than last week, of course. I did, however, not like the main plot. Moriarty's plan was ridiculous, and it shouldn't have worked for a hundred different reasons, not least of which is Sherlock bumbling about stupidly for the second half of the episode. What's a bit of a shame is that the idea that Sherlock invented Moriarty is actually a great one, and I would've liked to see them actually do an episode that makes that idea work, and that would make us wonder whether that's what is going on.

Without giving anything away, you might want to read this;



It's one of the better post-ACD novels, and has some interesting ideas.

From the director of 'The Wrath of Kahn' no less.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Actually found myself getting angrier as the episode went on, but more to Sherlock's situation . . . so nice writing there . . . my only complaint was to Catherine Parkinson . . . much like I did with Russel Tovey I really liked her when I first became aware of her work . . . but each role since I find them more and more annoying . . .

[Rory Abel]

Without giving anything away, you might want to read this;



It's one of the better post-ACD novels, and has some interesting ideas.

From the director of 'The Wrath of Kahn' no less.

The film is quite good too.

[Gibsonian]

Very enjoyable episode although within the opening minutes I did say to my other half that I feared they were going to pull a Doctor Who (which is pretty audacious I figured).

My one peeve is that Moriarty was a pretty uninteresting villian. I don't feel his character was truely filled out and we'd only seen him in part at the end of the previous series and only in full in this episode. Sure, he was in the opening episode of this series for a bit and for a minute or two in episode two but it would be nice to have seen him as a viable threat and more fleshed out.

[Steve Sensible]

...it would be nice to have seen him as a viable threat and more fleshed out.

More fleshed out how, though? In terms of back story? They couldn't really do that, or the "he's just an actor" plot wouldn't have worked.

I quite liked the way they handled Moriarty - while Andrew Scott's performance wasn't exactly on a par with Heath Ledger's Joker, that's clearly the kind of villain they wanted him to be - mysterious, powerful, and psychotic - somebody who was in it for the game, rather than any rational reason like financial gain.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Very enjoyable episode although within the opening minutes I did say to my other half that I feared they were going to pull a Doctor Who (which is pretty audacious I figured).

My one peeve is that Moriarty was a pretty uninteresting villian. I don't feel his character was truely filled out and we'd only seen him in part at the end of the previous series and only in full in this episode. Sure, he was in the opening episode of this series for a bit and for a minute or two in episode two but it would be nice to have seen him as a viable threat and more fleshed out.

Like Conan Doyle did . . . sorry if I'm misremembering, but it's been a while since I've read the originals, but didn't Moriarty practically come from nowhere to having always been Holmes nemesis?

[Eduardo]

Basically. He is introduced in The Final Problem, and then gets a couple of mentions in later cases, and a retroactive appearence in the novel The Valley of Fear.

Details:

- 1st appearance in "The Final Problem".
- Mentioned in "The Empty House", 1st appearance of Sebastian Moran.
- Behind the events of "The Valley of Fear".
- Mentioned in passing in four other short stories.