89 replies to this topic

[Johnny Henning]

For those who accept Zimmerman's defense, or find his defense believable... uh, what would Trayvon's motive be in that situation? To attack a bigger guy who had had already left him alone? To beat this guy with lethal force?

I think it's odd that in looking for Zimmerman's humanity, Trayvon gets reduced to a thug.

That is a problem. I think legally it may be a challenge - though not impossible - to convict Zimmerman of 2nd Degree Murder, but regardless of a conviction or not, I really don't believe Martin actually pursued or attacked Zimmerman out of the blue, the way Zimmerman claims, and, even if the kid did start a fight, Zimmerman still bears the moral responsibility of setting the entire event in motion through his irresponsible decision to follow Martin while carrying a gun. At no point in this can I see that Martin could have done anything that should have led to his own death. He was just a teenager walking legally down the street.

I believe the latest story was that Zimmerman reached for his phone and Martin thought he was pulling a gun... of course, if I was in Martin's shoes, I'd leap on the guy too. In that situation, I'd see him as the attacker.

[Arjan Dirkse]

For those who accept Zimmerman's defense, or find his defense believable... uh, what would Trayvon's motive be in that situation? To attack a bigger guy who had had already left him alone? To beat this guy with lethal force?

I think it's odd that in looking for Zimmerman's humanity, Trayvon gets reduced to a thug.

Of course it's odd, but not impossible. It can't be dismissed right away so it has to be investigated.

Who is reducing Martin to a thug?

[Will Carper]

Of course it's odd, but not impossible. It can't be dismissed right away so it has to be investigated.

Who is reducing Martin to a thug?

Because without motivation, Trayvon's a kid who beat up a guy just because. It's a thuggish motivation (and it's not even a motivation). The whole "Do you have a problem?" "No." "Well you do now." exchange Zimmerman is claiming sounds very thuggish (and Hollywood).

If he did attack Zimmerman, why? Anyone willing to ask why of Zimmerman should also ask why of Trayvon.

Edited by Will Carper, 13 April 2012 - 11:27 PM.

[Johnny Henning]

Yeah, that is very true. Zimmerman's story relies on the conceivability that Trayvon Martin, a 17-yr-old black kid, would automatically be aggressive enough to go after Zimmerman just because he was following him. Essentially, and in this I agree with Jim and Christian, the suggestion does indicate something of a stereotypical perception or prejudice that they would believe Martin capable of it outright rather than take time to investigate his history and speak to people who knew him.

IF the police weren't doing that, that is, but it does seem there is a case to be made that the police didn't look beyond Zimmerman's story to see if Martin had any history of this sort of thing Zimmerman claimed.

[Arjan Dirkse]

Because without motivation, Trayvon's a kid who beat up a guy just because. It's a thuggish motivation (and it's not even a motivation). The whole "Do you have a problem?" "No." "Well you do now." exchange Zimmerman is claiming sounds very thuggish (and Hollywood).

If he did attack Zimmerman, why? Anyone willing to ask why of Zimmerman should also ask why of Trayvon.

The problem is you cannot know for sure if it happened..certainly not now, maybe not ever. Of course it's possible Zimmerman is lying his ass off, but it's not fair to dismiss it right away at this point. So it needs to be taken into consideration, and investigated. I don't think anyone right now is simply assuming Zimmerman is speaking the truth.

As to why, who the hell knows? There are millions of reasons why people can act irrationally.

[Will Carper]

I'm not saying it should be dismissed. Just pointing out that Trayvon's motivations deserve as much consideration as Zimmerman's.

To me, shooting someone attacking you is reasonable. But then what about the person attacking you? Why's he doing it?

[Arjan Dirkse]

Yes it's unlikely but it has to be taken into consideration. The fact that people are willing to take it into consideration does not mean they're automatically making Trayvon martin out to be a thug.

I think this point of view will be pushed pretty heavily by the prosecutor, they'll stress it's unlikely Martin would ever do that, and they're probably right. If Martin was afraid, it's much more likely he would try to flee rather than attack. Do they have a record of the cell phone call he made?

[Johnny Henning]

Honestly, it's easier to discuss Zimmerman's point of view because it is really too sad and disturbing to think about what Trayvon Martin might have went through from his point of view.

[David Chapman]

I believe the latest story was that Zimmerman reached for his phone and Martin thought he was pulling a gun... of course, if I was in Martin's shoes, I'd leap on the guy too.

Except Zimmerman claims he was walking away from Martin when Martin attacked him. It would be remarkable if Martin could see him reach for anything.

Of course, if you look at the map of the area and know where Martin's body was found and where Zimmerman said the confrontation occurred, you'll think the whole scenario is full of remarkable events. Martin was clearly a master of ninjitsu who could avoid detection while standing in an area of open ground some fifty feet wide, and Zimmerman's gun was so powerful that the force of his shot propelled Martin's body over twenty metres.

[Johnny Henning]

Except Zimmerman claims he was walking away from Martin when Martin attacked him. It would be remarkable if Martin could see him reach for anything.

Of course, if you look at the map of the area and know where Martin's body was found and where Zimmerman said the confrontation occurred, you'll think the whole scenario is full of remarkable events. Martin was clearly a master of ninjitsu who could avoid detection while standing in an area of open ground some fifty feet wide, and Zimmerman's gun was so powerful that the force of his shot propelled Martin's body over twenty metres.

Yeah, I think once the investigation results are presented, there will be "reasonable doubt" to Zimmerman's claims. Certainly, this special prosecutor and her team thinks there is enough there to justify a murder charge, but maybe that's a tactic to get him to plead guilty to a lesser charge.

[jamon g]

I would have thought calling the police before shooting someone would take out most of the intent that's required for a murder conviction to stick. Know what we should take out of this odd case? Fashion kills!
Dress like a gangsta and you could get shot. Wear a concealed weapon and you might kill someone.

[Christian U]

What if you dress like a gangsta but wear a concealed weapon?

[Arjan Dirkse]

I think this case runs the risk of turning intio a bellwether for everybody with an opinion on race relations or some other social issue that they want to get across...rather than being about what actually happened, it'll be a case of angry shouting people on both sides who have a bone to pick with each other, and who are more preoccupied with their idealized image of Trayvon Martin as some kind of involuntary martyr or thier anxiety about youth crime or gun control than the actual case. Hopefully when there's some proper investigation done, there wikll be a much clearer picture of what happened.

[garjones]

Hopefully when there's some proper investigation done, there wikll be a much clearer picture of what happened.

That's why I always thought Zimmerman should have been charged (and I know the complexities of the law that mean that isn't the default response but almost everyone here on all sides have said the law is flawed in some area).

I don't have a horse in the race but without that there's a huge amount of speculation and inconsistency and 'he said, she said' going around that needs to be looked at in a court of law and adjudicated on with proper evidence. The longer it stayed in that state the more speculation and bandwagon jumping happens. It's a complicated case with much to discuss on both sides, Martin was unarmed and had no criminal intent we know of, Zimmerman obviously wasn't on a hunt to murder someone or he'd never have called the police.

[Arjan Dirkse]

It's a complicated case with much to discuss on both sides, Martin was unarmed and had no criminal intent we know of, Zimmerman obviously wasn't on a hunt to murder someone or he'd never have called the police.

Yeah that's true. It's probably very rare that a possible homicide case is easy...and it isn't in this case either.

I used "bellwether" in my earlier post, which isn't the correct word by the way...I wasn't entirely sure about the meaning of the word, so I looked it up afterwards, and it was something different than I thought it meant...what I mean is an occasion where someone uses a case as an example to make their own point while disregarding the fact that the real facts, which are obviously still not known, may not necessarily confirm their point at all

[Johnny Henning]

What if you dress like a gangsta but wear a concealed weapon?

Then you just might be a gangsta.

I don't have a horse in the race but without that there's a huge amount of speculation and inconsistency and 'he said, she said' going around that needs to be looked at in a court of law and adjudicated on with proper evidence. The longer it stayed in that state the more speculation and bandwagon jumping happens. It's a complicated case with much to discuss on both sides, Martin was unarmed and had no criminal intent we know of, Zimmerman obviously wasn't on a hunt to murder someone or he'd never have called the police.

I had a horse in the race, but it broke a leg on the first turn.

Actually, as far as intent to murder, we don't really know what Zimmerman planned. People have done dumber things in other murder cases. Except for the people actually involved in the case, our perception is going to be skewed severely by the reporting.

[Ogul]

See, this bothers me. Apologies Ogul, and I mean that, but your paragraph there reads like "Screw the Evidence, how can the prosecutor get this guy so we as a nation can have a nice, neat ending to this?" You are coming at this with a preconcieved notion of guilt and trying to figure out how to prove it.

I'm not saying that Zimmerman should be found guilty. The only thing that I've been sure about in this case is that he should face charges, the outcome is up to the jury. That said, whether he's guilty of manslaughter or not, he is guilty of bad judgment. He should never have been armed while on neighborhood watch, he should never have followed anyone, if he'd been behaving responsibly, if he hadn't been armed, then none of this would have been happening. My comments were not that Zimmerman should be convicted on flimsy character data, just that it's one path that seems likely for prosecutors to pursue if he tries to tell his story on the stand. That if he wants to lay out the case that Martin jumped him out of the blue, it would likely give the prosecution the opportunity to make him seem like a really shady guy as well, so it could cut both ways. As there is really no evidence in support of Zimmerman beyond his own testimony, that would put him int a tough place. I say that without judgment as to whether that is a good or bad thing overall.

[Todd Gambrel]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5FQs9lWBIQ

[Johnny Henning]

Zimmerman makes bail

...Mr. O’Mara conceded that allowing Zimmerman to take the stand at the bond hearing “was very risky,” but said Zimmerman wanted specifically to address several questions raised by Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon's mom, in an interview last week, where she asked why he shot an unarmed teenager.

Zimmerman said he thought Trayvon was an adult, "a little bit younger than I am," and that he didn’t know if Trayvon was armed or not. Zimmerman ended by saying, “I’m sorry for the loss of your son.”

O’Mara noted that Zimmerman “didn’t want to defend himself, didn’t want to talk about the facts, but he had heard a request from the family, and that’s precisely what he wanted to address...”

---

...But during his turn on the stand, Gilbreath drew attention to Zimmerman's assertion to police that Trayvon was at one point running around Zimmerman's car. Gilbreath questioned why that should make Zimmerman fear for his life. “[Zimmerman] was so scared that he still got out of the car and chased Mr. Martin,” Gilbreath said skeptically.

Under questioning from O’Mara, Gilbreath also described new details that Zimmerman told police, including the claim that Trayvon allegedly tried to suffocate Zimmerman and grab for his gun before Zimmerman “scooted away” and shot Trayvon at close range...

[Arjan Dirkse]

Well it looks bad for Zimmerman I think...his story does seem completely unbelievable to me right now.

Is it at all credible that Trayvon Martin could pose a physical threat to him? Regarding physical power etc? Unless Trayvon Martin was a serious martial arts enthusiast, I don't think Zimmerman will be able to convince the jury.