199 replies to this topic

[Johnny Henning]

The phone call and timeline seems to indicate that as well - that Zimmerman approached Martin rather than "he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV" when the kid "attacked him."

The strange thing is, the way the mind works, it is possible Zimmerman and none of the witnesses will remember the actual sequence of events. However, I still think that just from the statute, by following Martin from the outset, Zimmerman is the aggressor.

At the same time, it is still gonna be tough to decide if he unlawfully shot Martin.

[Ogul]

The problem isn't that Zimmerman isn't already sentenced to life in prison, the problem is that he hasn't even been charged yet, that he still has his weapon and his freedom without being tried yet. It's certainly not an open and shut case, and I've believed that much from the start, but it is open an shut that he should have been treated as a suspect is treated, rather than being treated as an innocent victim.

[Johnny Henning]

On a lighter note, what is with all the hoodie hate/love? I wear hoodies. I'm wearing a hooded sweatshirt right now. How does hoodie = hoodlum? Geraldo - who I haven't thought about in ages - is now infamous for saying the hoodie was as much to blame as the gun.

A hoodie is not the freakin' Mask from THE MASK. It's not some cursed object that makes bad stuff happen... or is it? What do we really know about the hoodie Trayvon was wearing? Has it been examined by a demonologist?

[Chris D]

Yeah, I wear hoodies a lot too. I find them comfy. And they're also good for when you go out in the rain, like Trayvon did that day. It keeps your head dry.

[Arjan Dirkse]

On a lighter note, what is with all the hoodie hate/love? I wear hoodies. I'm wearing a hooded sweatshirt right now. How does hoodie = hoodlum? Geraldo - who I haven't thought about in ages - is now infamous for saying the hoodie was as much to blame as the gun.

A hoodie is not the freakin' Mask from THE MASK. It's not some cursed object that makes bad stuff happen... or is it? What do we really know about the hoodie Trayvon was wearing? Has it been examined by a demonologist?

It's ridiculous, isn't it?

People need to direct their frustrations and hate somewhere. That's all it is I think.

[Ricardo_C]

It's ridiculous, isn't it?

People need to direct their frustrations and hate somewhere. That's all it is I think.

That, and Geraldo's a hack desperately trying to be relevant again, and failing miserably.

[Jim Ohara]

On a lighter note, what is with all the hoodie hate/love? I wear hoodies. I'm wearing a hooded sweatshirt right now. How does hoodie = hoodlum? Geraldo - who I haven't thought about in ages - is now infamous for saying the hoodie was as much to blame as the gun.

A hoodie is not the freakin' Mask from THE MASK. It's not some cursed object that makes bad stuff happen... or is it? What do we really know about the hoodie Trayvon was wearing? Has it been examined by a demonologist?

I think most people don't like them because it hides faces, and there's a sense of comfort when you can see someone's face. that and it's usually teenage boys who wear hoodies, who have a reputation for being annoying. I guess it's a bit like the wearing your pants around your knees thing that's somewhat popular with the young un's.

[The Lorcan Nagle]

I got stopped going into a supermarket near work last year because I was wearing a hoodie with the hood up - it was raining out and the guard wouldn't let me past the door until I took the hood down

[jamon g]

should have worn a top hat.

[Chewy Sun]

Chances are good that Zimmerman will get off, and use self defense successfully, due to the fact that there is enough evidence to charge him, but not enough evidence (since the evidence, Martin's testimony, is dead) to convict. Because it is very plausible that what Zimmerman said was true enough to get him to self defense, that Z followed Martin somewhere, a confrontation occurred where Z and M got into a physical altercation. And it is VERY plausible a person like Zimmerman, despite having 100 lbs on Martin, would be a total sissy, and be losing a fight, because carrying a gun gives douchebags a power trip feeling of invincibility......... but then again, it does not seem plausible that Martin would give chase after him.


I don't see murder, but I can see Zimmerman being convicted of manslaughter at least 2nd degree, because it was due to his criminally negligent actions that lead to the death of a person, self defense or not.



Chewy.................................................... IF, the screams for help were not found to be of Trayvon Martin....

[jamon g]

I see they're calling him 'white hispanic' now instead of just white. US has some serious race hangups.
I'm still curious about the whole being able to carry a concealed handgun thing. If you have a law that says you can shoot anyone you think is going to harm you, and anyone can carry a gun, well welcome to hardcore violent town!

[Chewy Sun]

I see they're calling him 'white hispanic' now instead of just white. US has some serious race hangups.
I'm still curious about the whole being able to carry a concealed handgun thing. If you have a law that says you can shoot anyone you think is going to harm you, and anyone can carry a gun, well welcome to hardcore violent town!

Yep. America's disconnect on race, and their disconnect on logic in the face of the cowboy/independence ethos.




Chewy............................................. too much policies that affect urban life completely different from rural life exist. Its unfortunate that despite all the gun nuts having the romantic view of the old wild west, they won't accept that many of the towns of the wild west had gun control laws, and far less guns than most suburbs.

[Arjan Dirkse]

About people saying that if it were the other way round, a white person shot by a black person, the black person would have been in jail right from the start; isn't that sort of thing easy to check for some reporter? I'm interested to see wether any black people got off scot free under the "stand your ground" law.

[Robert B]

I often wear a hoodie with the hood up when I walk through bad neighborhoods, and it is definitely to intimidate. Well, that's not quite the right word. But, coupled with my 6'4" frame, it basically says "leave me alone". Of course I'm white so I'm not going to be shot by some wannabe vigilante.

Not saying Martin did anything wrong, and the "he was asking for it" suggestion is pretty messed up, but I do see where line of thought comes from.

[Ricardo_C]

I see lots of people with pulled-up hoodies all the time. Lots of them are young black kids, but another big portion includes white males, elderly people of any race, children, women, etc.

Then again, this is Pittsburgh, where the flaky weather means you are practically issued a hoodie when you move to the area :p

[Ogul]

About people saying that if it were the other way round, a white person shot by a black person, the black person would have been in jail right from the start; isn't that sort of thing easy to check for some reporter? I'm interested to see wether any black people got off scot free under the "stand your ground" law.

Most of them would know better than to walk around with a gun on them, you can get shot by the police that way. I don't know whether there is any data on your question, but my gut feeling is that "responsible" black men walking around with guns in public are far more rare than white men, because they know that they couldn't get away with it. That's not right, of course, but it is how it is.

Edited by Ogul, 27 March 2012 - 02:25 PM.

[Jim Ohara]

I see the character assassination of Treyvon Martin has begin - new reports this morning that he was suspended from school for traces of marijuana resin found in his bag, and that he had burglary equipment in his backpack along with womens jewelry. This case looks like it's going to get uglier.

[garjones]

I got stopped going into a supermarket near work last year because I was wearing a hoodie with the hood up - it was raining out and the guard wouldn't let me past the door until I took the hood down

They are banned in quite a few supermarkets. Back when I used to wear a suit to work I used to pop into a local Spar type sundry shop by the station on my way home and was ignored. I went in one weekend with a hoodie on and got followed around by the owner.

That never happens now as it's too hot to wear a hoodie and I'm the token white man so even if I've only been in the shop once before they remember me and what I bought last time!

[Johnny Henning]

About people saying that if it were the other way round, a white person shot by a black person, the black person would have been in jail right from the start; isn't that sort of thing easy to check for some reporter? I'm interested to see wether any black people got off scot free under the "stand your ground" law.

It would not be easy to check. Though statistics indicate that there are more incidents of blacks shooting or using guns against whites than whites shooting or robbing blacks, I still think the statistics show that intra-racial violence, blacks shooting blacks or whites shooting whites are a far larger and more likely number.

Adding to the complications is that defensive gun use is often unreported because the gun owner doesn't need to fire it. He or she pulls the gun or simply says that she has one, and the aggressor most often leaves the scene, as you would expect. Honestly, I doubt you'll find there are many stand your ground cases of any kind to refer to since it is doubtful they would make up a large enough percentage of gun use cases, and they probably aren't going to include many, if any, cases of blacks shooting whites.

Here are a few from the past: http://www.thedailyb...h-carolina.html

Maybe this one? http://www.dailykos....l-went-to-Court

http://www.tampabay....valrico/1206308

[Sarah Horrocks]

I see the character assassination of Treyvon Martin has begin - new reports this morning that he was suspended from school for traces of marijuana resin found in his bag, and that he had burglary equipment in his backpack along with womens jewelry. This case looks like it's going to get uglier.

This type of thing is of course why it would be nice to have an ACTUAL trial, rather than just try the whole thing in the court of public opinion. There's so much misinformation out there at this point, that's it's hard to really say much beyond that one guy stalked a kid through a neighborhood and then shot him, even though the kid was unnarmed.

I'm surprised the Martin family haven't at least pursued a civil suit against both ZImmerman and the Sanford police department. The threshhold in civil court is much lower than criminal court, and if they can't get justice in the criminal courts, they can at least ruin Zimmerman's life, and make some people lose their jobs at the PD.