190 replies to this topic

[Ogul]

Was disappointed to see the sexism/anti-women thread had been closed so...

See though, that's the sort of silliness that prevents the argument from being taken seriously. It's false equivalency. No, the male superheroes don't tend to wear costumes like that, but not because superhero comics are more sexist than real life, but because they are as sexist as real life, in that real live women tend to wear more revealing clothing than real life men do in similar situations. Putting up pictures of imagined "like female" costumes for the male characters is a pointless exercise, because it makes no more sense than saying that knee-skirts should be standard men's business attire.

[Will]

See though, that's the sort of silliness that prevents the argument from being taken seriously. It's false equivalency. No, the male superheroes don't tend to wear costumes like that, but not because superhero comics are more sexist than real life, but because they are as sexist as real life, in that real live women tend to wear more revealing clothing than real life men do in similar situations. Putting up pictures of imagined "like female" costumes for the male characters is a pointless exercise, because it makes no more sense than saying that knee-skirts should be standard men's business attire.

Have you ever been in a gym or bar? Fit men wear revealing clothes as much as women.

[Ogul]

Have you ever been in a gym or bar? Fit men wear revealing clothes as much as women.

Some choose to, and that's fine, some male superheroes DO wear less clothing than their female counterparts, like Namor, Herc, Cage (sometimes), Hulk, etc. Generally in real life, if a man is showing more skin than the average woman, then it's because he is a braggart or exhibitionist, which wouldn't apply to most superheros. If a real life woman shows less skin than the average male then she is particularly shy or prudish, again not a trait shared by most heroines. Whether a male or female comic character fits into one of those categories is a matter of characterization. But again, it's a simple analogy of what is considered gender-acceptable attire:

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[Peter Singer]

Well in our gym men and women wear clothes where form follows function.
But I get treated to the involuntary (male Dx) nipple slip from time to time.

[Will]

Some choose to, and that's fine, some male superheroes DO wear less clothing than their female counterparts, like Namor, Herc, Cage (sometimes), Hulk, etc. Generally in real life, if a man is showing more skin than the average woman, then it's because he is a braggart or exhibitionist, which wouldn't apply to most superheros. If a real life woman shows less skin than the average male then she is particularly shy or prudish, again not a trait shared by most heroines. Whether a male or female comic character fits into one of those categories is a matter of characterization. But again, it's a simple analogy of what is considered gender-acceptable attire:

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Batman and Batwoman both wearing tight, revealing clothes doesn't make your point.

And are you trying to say most heroines are slutty, exhibitionist whores because they wear form fitting clothes?

[Ogul]

And are you trying to say most heroines are slutty, exhibitionist whores because they wear form fitting clothes?

No, if you'll read the words that I typed using my keyboard and then submitted to the site for reading, I think you'd find that I'm saying the exact opposite. I'm saying that the amount of clothing that female superheroes wear, within the dynamic that superheroes of both genders wear lots of spandex, is entirely appropriate in relation to the amount of clothing that their male counterparts wear. To be considered "exhibitionist" they'd have to wear significantly less than that (like Starfire, perhaps).

I guess my point is, if, in this real world we actually live in, a woman were to run around fighting crime in this look:



We would probably think she's a little underdressed for the job, because normally heroes dress like this instead:



However, inside the comic universes, men wear clothing like this:



Full body spandex with underwear on the outside, a female counterpart wearing this:



is not inappropriate, is not overly sexualized, it is an equivalent costume based on standard of male/female clothing styles.

[David Meadows]

I understand Ogul's point. Just looking round the office now -- an office, not a bar where people might be expected to show a bit more skin -- every woman is showing bare legs. Not one single man is. For arms, it looks like an even split. Most men have one shirt button undone (but that is all); most women are the same but at least one one woman has a top low enough to show cleavage (I would normally have expected two, but our receptionist is uncharacteristically covered up today. Maybe she's cold).

There is a difference between how much flesh men and women show in the real world. We might not want there to be a double standard, but that doesn't change the fact that there is one. Women (on average) show more flesh in their work clothes than men (on average) do.

[garjones]

From a great article on CBR today: http://goodcomics.co...-its-not-equal/

It even covers the Namor issue.

[Robert B]

To be fair that X-Men picture is a terrible example as Cyclops clearly has a cock, or at least more of one than we ever see on costumed heroes, that's front and center in the frame.

[garjones]

It isn't much to write home about though.

I think the point on that one was how covered the men were compared to the ladies. Apart from Wolverine with his bare arms for the guys they pretty much comply with Saudi Arabian standards.

Same story here:

[David Meadows]

It isn't much to write home about though.

I think the point on that one was how covered the men were compared to the ladies. Apart from Wolverine with his bare arms for the guys they pretty much comply with Saudi Arabian standards.

And, as I have just surveyed, the same holds true in an average workplace.

Not condoning the practice, just pointing out that it follows trends set in real life (albeit exaggerating them, as superhero comics tend to do).

[Robert B]

It isn't much to write home about though.

Guess that's where the nickname Slim came from.

[garjones]

And, as I have just surveyed, the same holds true in an average workplace.

Not condoning the practice, just pointing out that it follows trends set in real life (albeit exaggerating them, as superhero comics tend to do).

To a degree, there are short skirts but I don't see the men in work covered head to toe and the ladies in swimsuits.

[Ricardo_C]

To a degree, there are short skirts but I don't see the men in work covered head to toe and the ladies in swimsuits.

You see men covered head to toe, just not in package-hugging spandex. And thank goodness for that!

[Michael Stranger]

Perhaps this is the right thread for this:



Full-length version's in the Youtube sidebar on the actual site.

I think this applies to representation of women in comics too. If superheroes are aspirational, then the way superheroines behave (or more precisely, female anti-heroes) is much more questionable than their male counterparts.

[David Meadows]

To a degree, there are short skirts but I don't see the men in work covered head to toe and the ladies in swimsuits.

Yes, that would be where the "exaggerating them" part comes in

[garjones]

Yes, that would be where the "exaggerating them" part comes in

Sure but at what point can your exaggeration realistically end? I see nothing remotely approaching a swim suit in the office and we're pretty casual.

Does a knee length skirt get 'exaggerated' to a thong and nipple tassles?

[craggy]

important stuff there, michael, but not something limited solely to women's image in the media. eating disorders or body image issues may not be as widespread or openly talked about, at least, amongst men as they are with women, but it's still an issue that is there. pretending that only women are affected like this actually offends me a bit.

[Michael Stranger]

important stuff there, michael, but not something limited solely to women's image in the media. eating disorders or body image issues may not be as widespread or openly talked about, at least, amongst men as they are with women, but it's still an issue that is there. pretending that only women are affected like this actually offends me a bit.

She goes into the male version of objectification in the media more fully in the full-length version - while we do have some pretty idealised looks and body types to aspire to, men as generally represented in strong, forceful situations, no matter how skimpy their outfit. Compare that to women in the media: they're generally portrayed in vulnerable, passive situations, passing the message onto the viewer that women should be beautiful, sexy, but most of all a victim.

She skews all of the images in her presentation to her advantage, but it's a strong argument. Men have some catching up to do with the six-packs and male models we see in the media, but nothing compared to what women have to contend with.

[craggy]

so by that theory, it'd be okay to ignore racism against a latino man because everyone is being racist towards muslims?